From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net To: John Bouyea Subject: KRnet Digest, Vol 346, Issue 39 Date: 4/22/2004 9:00:15 PM Send KRnet mailing list submissions to krnet@mylist.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mylist.net/listinfo/krnet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to krnet-request@mylist.net You can reach the person managing the list at krnet-owner@mylist.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of KRnet digest..." Today's Topics: 1. RE: Successful VW Conversion (Stephen Jacobs) 2. Re: Successful VW Conversion (Veeduber@aol.com) 3. RE: Successful VW Conversion (Stephen Jacobs) 4. delaminations! (Ross Evans) 5. Re: type 4 Failures (Virgil Salisbury) 6. Oshkosh 2004 (cgardn628) 7. Re: Oshkosh 2004 (Mark Langford) 8. Sealant (Colin & Bev Rainey) 9. delaminations! (larry flesner) 10. Re: SNF Pics (Joseph H Horton) 11. Re: Oshkosh 2004 (Timothy Bellville) 12. Re: Sealant (FIXERJONES@aol.com) 13. Re: SNF Pics (FIXERJONES@aol.com) 14. rand WAF's (danharris@pacific.net) 15. KR web page (Mark Langford) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 08:21:31 +0200 From: "Stephen Jacobs" Subject: RE: KR> Successful VW Conversion To: "'KRnet'" Message-ID: <000001c42832$12f3f430$2f64a8c0@homedesktop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Mr. Hoover I realize that this is not a simple topic, but the words "there is no concise answer to that" - sounds a bit like something a politician will say. No offence please sir, but we are talking about a 40 plus year old engineering discipline. I am consistently amazed and impressed by the ability of home builders to learn, adapt and innovate - it was a home builder that evolved the first composite /canard (commercial) aircraft (Beech Starship). The same "home builder" recently flew supersonic and looks set to be the first non-govt entity into space. Do not sell "us" short. >From your comments, the crank failures that have occurred were predictable (by you) for the lack of some basic understanding - you say " though those detail items have been found in winning VW engines for more than forty years (and may be found in all modern engines as a matter of course)". It would be sad if we are unwittingly doing things that could have unpleasant consequences - whilst the solution to a better way is in fact known (by one of us). I have been in and around home built aircraft and rebuilding VW engines since 1968. I have read and listened to everything available on these engines - particularly since the internet came along. Why am I hearing about this weakness for the first time in 2004? Steve J Askies'at'microlink.zm ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 03:25:08 EDT From: Veeduber@aol.com Subject: Re: KR> Successful VW Conversion To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <154.3326582c.2db8cd54@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 4/21/2004 11:23:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time, askies@microlink.zm writes: > I realize that this is not a simple topic, but the words "there is no > concise answer to that" - sounds a bit like something a politician > will say. Tough darts. The fellow wanted a quick & easy, yes-no sort of answer. Reality doesn't work that way. > > No offence please sir, but we are talking about a 40 plus year old > engineering discipline. Older. If you start with the Lenoir you're back before the American civil war. Other than thermal barrier coatings I can't think of any mechanical feature found in modern-day engines that was not expounded upon by Sir Harry Ricardo. By the time he published his tome on the design of the 'high-speed' (ie, >1000 rpm) internal combustion engine in 1920 or thereabouts he'd already spent twenty years experimenting with and refining such things as stratified charge, variable valve timing and so forth. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I am consistently amazed and impressed by the ability of home builders > to learn, adapt and innovate - it was a home builder that evolved the > first composite /canard (commercial) aircraft (Beech Starship). The > same "home builder" recently flew supersonic and looks set to be the > first non-govt entity into space. Do not sell "us" short. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The particular "home builder" you are referring to designed the Varieze around an engine that did not exist (ie, a '68hp' VW). Were you there? Do you remember the hype? Inexpensive. VW powered. No conventional control surfaces (ie, canard & rudders only). Can you honestly say ANY of those goals were met? Burt has obviously learned from his mistakes and his accomplishments are something all airmen can point to with pride. But the topic is VW engines not a fleet of scrapped Starships and any attempt to compare the two would appear to justify my remarks rather than yours. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >From your comments, the crank failures that have occurred were > predictable (by you) --------------------------------------------------------------- Whoa! Ardem of England did a complete engineering study on the VW crankshaft more than 50 years ago when they sought certification of their license-built... whatever (Jodel? Druine? Can't remember which.) They pointed out the problems back then and it was widely reported in the magazines of that era. The limitations on power output (25hp for take-off) and the 200 TBO for the crank were considered acceptable trade-offs. That was then. So the engine grew from 1100cc (ie, their certified 4C32 model) to the present day 2332 (if you can afford it). The key fact is that the nose of the crankshaft has remained exactly the same... a little nubbin barely three-quarters of an inch long, less than an inch and a half in diameter and pierced with a threaded bore three-quarters of an inch in diameter. Are you aware the Woodruff keyway comes to within sixty thou of the metric thread in the nose of the crank? (Metric threads have a sharp point; make a nice stress riser.) The manner in which the crack initiates and propagates is well documented and anyone who has flown their share of hours behind a VW is aware of it. This is all OLD NEWS. Why do you think everyone keeps trying to come up with a better prop hub? Because the thing never fails? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ > for the lack of some basic understanding - you say > " though those detail items have been found in winning VW engines for > more than forty years (and may be found in all modern engines as a > matter of course)". > > It would be sad if we are unwittingly doing things that could have > unpleasant consequences - whilst the solution to a better way is in > fact known (by one of us). ----------------------------------------------------------------- The numerous modification I took the trouble to promulgate are time-proven methods of improving the engines reliability, mostly by ensuring adequate lubrication and better cooling. Tear apart any modern engine and there they are. The tricky bit was retrofitting those features to an engine designed in the 19 30's. Professional builders of high output engines have been applying these mo ds since the early 1960's -- and charging accordingly. You probably can't afford to buy a full-trick racing engine but most of the reliability mods are fairly easy to accomplish... once you know how. I was simply showing folks how. Although I included drawings showing the method I use to attach the prop, that's really a different issue; the cause of the pulley-hub fractures has been known and discussed since the mid-1950's. If you want to put the prop on the pulley-hub, that's you're God given right. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I have been in and around home built aircraft and rebuilding VW > engines since 1968. I have read and listened to everything available > on these engines - particularly since the internet came along. > > Why am I hearing about this weakness for the first time in 2004? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - That's a real good question, Steve :-) I guess the answer depends on who you've been listening too. Or how many engines you've built. -R.S.Hoover ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 14:55:37 +0200 From: "Stephen Jacobs" Subject: RE: KR> Successful VW Conversion To: "'KRnet'" Message-ID: <000501c42869$1f22ada0$0b64a8c0@homedesktop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Mr. Hoover Yet again sir, with utmost respect: ............................................................... Why do you think everyone keeps trying to come up with a better prop hub? Because the thing never fails? ............................................................... Your reply assumes that your opinion or advice is being doubted - not so, as you well know, this forum is all about learning from those that do know what they are talking about and it is obvious that you do. You very clearly illustrate why a pulley-end failure is a definite risk on any VW - you got my attention first time - I will not go that way. I prefer the correct propeller rotation anyway - so rear drive it will be - probably with the GPA rear drive system that offers some accessory mounts and torsional damping. QED. ............................................................... most of the reliability mods are fairly easy to accomplish... once you know how. I was simply showing folks how. ............................................................... Will I find some of this information in the KR archives? Are you open to questions on the topic? Take care Steve J ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 23:14:03 +1000 From: "Ross Evans" Subject: KR> delaminations! To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed hi I am interested on what people have found on wing delaminations on fixing and prevention i have one wing that is perfect and one that has several I have used epoxy and drilled holes injected resin and sandbagged the area is this sufficient! cheers Ross _________________________________________________________________ What's your house worth? Click here to find out: http://www.ninemsn.realestate.com.au ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 10:16:15 -0400 From: Virgil Salisbury Subject: Re: KR> type 4 Failures To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <20040422.103012.488.0.virgnvs@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Use 3M trim cement to seal the case halves, no thread. The yellow sticky stuff, Virg On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 18:50:58 -0700 "Ryan" writes: > This is from another list. > Ryan > 6:50.21.04 > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Q-LIST/message/10392 > > From: HawkiDoug@a... > Date: Thu Jan 2, 2003 8:34 am > Subject: VW type 4 fix > > > For those who might be interested, here's what we have come up > with as a fix > to my prop hub coming off last fall. To recap briefly, the end > of a type 4 > crank has a smaller taper on the very end and a "sleeve" is > fitted over the > end and then machined for the Force One Prop hub. We are > confident this was > the weak link and the source of the failure. Steve Bennett of > Great Plains > and I looked at several solutions and the one both Steve & I > liked best was > to have a new crank made the way we want it made. It will > actually be better > than the std. VW crank. Cost= $1000.00. The other solutions > looked to be > about half this cost, so it was a no brainer for me to spend > the extra money. > I believe I will still have about $5500.00 invested in the > engine. > > Steve sent a letter to his type 4 customers offering this > option at his cost > on this initial run. If things go as planned (do they ever?), > I should be > back in the air by early summer. > > Now, I have a question to you VW experts. What do you think of > using > Lycoming thread to seal the case halves with? See any problems > doing this? > > Doug "Hawkeye" Humble > Omaha NE > N25974 > A Sign Above > > ============================== > > If there are cranks failing I personally really want to know > who and why. > Tweedy and I are both getting older and would like to continue > to do so > without having experienced crank failure. > So, this post is a call for any one with direct knowledge to > sing out. > > Orma L. Robbins Southfield MI > 19 Years flying KR-2 N110LR (Tweedy) > http://www.aviation-mechanics.com > > > > _______________________________________ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > Virgil N. Salisbury - AMSOIL www.lubedealer.com/salisbury Miami ,Fl ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 12:33:14 -0400 From: "cgardn628" Subject: KR> Oshkosh 2004 To: "KR NET" Message-ID: <005601c42887$828d4990$6501a8c0@mdgwd52jlrmc3l> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Who is considering attending Oshkosh 2004 with their KR ? Two KR's from Canada will be there ( again ) this year and I'm wondering who will join us . Apparently , the EAA stat's say that 5 attended but I only counted 3 last year . Hope we will have better showing this year in the "Auto engine conversion area . Jim , are you going ? Cheers Chris Gardiner C-GKRZ ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 12:39:54 -0500 From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> Oshkosh 2004 To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <025101c42890$d283a120$5e0ca58c@tbe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Chris Gardiner wrote: > Two KR's from Canada will be there ( again ) this year and I'm > wondering who will join us . Apparently , the EAA stat's say that 5 attended but I only counted 3 last year . I'm sure you meant "KRs", but I just wanted to mention that I'm doing the KR forum this year (Jim had a prior commitment), and I think it'll be held on Tuesday morning. The schedule that's posted on their website doesn't include us, but I called and was assured that we're "in". I'm wide open as to what will be covered, and I'd love to have some help from "real live KR pilots", builders, or just about anybody else that can be talked into standing in front of a few builders talking for a few minutes. Maybe I can get Bill Marcy (RR's structural engineer guy) to show up to. Any and all ideas (and help) would be welcome... Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL N56ML at hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 15:28:43 -0400 From: "Colin & Bev Rainey" Subject: KR> Sealant To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <005e01c428a0$06a4f990$99ef0843@RaineyDay> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" "Gorilla snot" is what we called 3M weather-strip adhesive and no it is no good for sealing anything with heat applied. It is good for holding gaskets in place until assembled. The best stuff for making liquid gaskets is GM black RTV that is O2 sensor safe gasket adhesive and maker. This one works stand alone is designed for all automotive applications, and is gas and oil resistant. The 3M will eventually get hard crack and leak. The Permatex will not. 15 years of auto repairs proved that one for me working in the profession. It has also become the standard from the assembly line on virtually all rear wheel drive axle cases, valve covers not using rubber gaskets, the ends of the intake gaskets on V6 & V8 engines, and much more. Good building.... Colin & Bev Rainey KR2(td) N96TA Sanford, FL crainey1@cfl.rr.com or crbrn96ta@hotmail.com http://kr-builder.org/Colin/index.html ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 18:12:44 -0500 From: larry flesner Subject: KR> delaminations! To: KRnet Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040422181244.007d4de0@pop.midwest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:14 PM 4/22/04 +1000, you wrote: >hi I am interested on what people have found on wing delaminations on >fixing >and prevention i have one wing that is perfect and one that has several I >have used epoxy and drilled holes injected resin and sandbagged the area is >this sufficient! >Ross ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Could you be more specific on what you call "delaminations"? Are you talking "bubbles" on the wing, glass layers coming apart at a seam, glass coming loose from the spar, trail edge separations, etc., etc.? Different problems have different solutions and different answers. Some might be fixable, some might not (glass coming off spar, re-do it!). Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 21:04:20 -0400 From: Joseph H Horton Subject: Re: KR> SNF Pics To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <20040422.210420.-346831.0.joe.kr2s.builder@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain Looks like a MicroAir in the center top-- Joe Horton On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 11:57:14 -0400 "Wood, Sidney M." writes: > There is a transponder, but where is the VHF radio? > > Sid Wood > Mechanicsville, MD > > http://www.geocities.com/djramccoop1/2004_SunNFun1.html ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 21:11:11 -0400 From: "Timothy Bellville" Subject: Re: KR> Oshkosh 2004 To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <1b1f01c428cf$ddf8ade0$882c4b0c@HPHome> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I am ,come hell or high water Tim KR2 N7038V ----- Original Message ----- From: "cgardn628" To: "KR NET" Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 12:33 PM Subject: KR> Oshkosh 2004 > Who is considering attending Oshkosh 2004 with their KR ? > > Two KR's from Canada will be there ( again ) this year and I'm > wondering who will join us . Apparently , the EAA stat's say that 5 attended but I only counted 3 last year . > > Hope we will have better showing this year in the "Auto engine > conversion area . > > Jim , are you going ? > > Cheers > > Chris Gardiner > C-GKRZ > _______________________________________ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 21:48:42 EDT From: FIXERJONES@aol.com Subject: Re: KR> Sealant To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <2b.559199d8.2db9cffa@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" for sealing the case halves, i used hondabond,,,got at the honda shop,, used the stuff since 1972 with no problems. steve jones n212kr ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 21:50:43 EDT From: FIXERJONES@aol.com Subject: Re: KR> SNF Pics To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" you got that rite,,with homemade antenna of copper foil it works GREAT n212kr ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 20:25:25 -0700 From: danharris@pacific.net Subject: KR> rand WAF's To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <20040423021817.M68950@pacific.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 kevin,i spoke to janet(?) at rand ontues. to find out her manufacture was no longer, but one of kr-2 builders is working on making them. but best that you talk to her about it. thanks dan harris N667PD ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 22:14:29 -0500 From: "Mark Langford" Subject: KR> KR web page To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <000901c428e1$1b3cf970$2402a8c0@800Athlon> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Steve, I made a web page for your plane. Do you have a photo of the engine that I could talk you out of? And if you could make a few comments about some of the pictures it would be nice. It's at http://www.krnet.org/krs/sjones/ . Fantastic looking plane, by the way! Thanks, Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL N56ML "at" hiwaay.net see KR2S project at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ See KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html End of KRnet Digest, Vol 346, Issue 39 ************************************** ================================== ABC Amber Outlook Converter v4.20 Trial version ==================================