From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net To: John Bouyea Subject: KRnet Digest, Vol 346, Issue 51 Date: 4/30/2004 9:00:19 PM Send KRnet mailing list submissions to krnet@mylist.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mylist.net/listinfo/krnet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to krnet-request@mylist.net You can reach the person managing the list at krnet-owner@mylist.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of KRnet digest..." Today's Topics: 1. new airfoil users (Brian Kraut) 2. Pitch sensitvity ,again (Aripo) 3. RE: Pitch sensitvity ,again (Stephen Jacobs) 4. Pitch sensitvity (larry flesner) 5. RE: flight test (larry flesner) 6. RE: Pitch sensitvity (Stephen Jacobs) 7. RE: Pitch sensitvity (Stephen Jacobs) 8. Type 4 buildup (orma) 9. RE: flight test (Brian Kraut) 10. flight test/decalage (larry flesner) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 00:15:57 -0400 From: "Brian Kraut" Subject: KR> new airfoil users To: "KRnet" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Can anyone tell me how to get in touch with Troy Petteway or Dean Selby. Also, are there any other planes flying now with the new airfoil? Brian Kraut Engineering Alternatives, Inc. www.engalt.com ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 11:59:30 +0200 From: "Aripo" Subject: KR> Pitch sensitvity ,again To: "krnet" Message-ID: <000e01c42e99$d9e8c080$b08a3252@r9a7v5> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi First of all KR are pitch sensitives but not much more like many others planes, obviously they are not a C172. The lack of the pitch sensitivity of my KR in my opinion is caused of the following factors: 1 I'm an helicopter pilot ( choppers are very sensitive in all axes) 2 Offset, I' ve about 2° right and 1° down engine 3 big prop dia. about 73" ( max rpm prop. of Rotax 912 is 2400 ) 4 C.G. at 22% Wing chord , in flight test, and max rear C.G. of 27% 5 12" longer fuselage , from the spinner to the tail I've the same lenght of a KR2S Franco Negri I-KRFN ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 12:40:38 +0200 From: "Stephen Jacobs" Subject: RE: KR> Pitch sensitvity ,again To: "'KRnet'" Message-ID: <000001c42e9f$95709e40$9c64a8c0@homedesktop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" 1 I'm an helicopter pilot ( choppers are very sensitive in all axes) 2 Offset, I' ve about 2° right and 1° down engine 3 big prop dia. about 73" ( max rpm prop. of Rotax 912 is 2400 ) 4 C.G. at 22% Wing chord , in flight test, and max rear C.G. of 27% 5 12" longer fuselage , from the spinner to the tail I've the same lenght of a KR2S ....................................................... Thanks Franco. My particular interest is focussed on the flight characteristics of the KR2 /KR2S, with particular reference to the incidence set-up incl. the thrust line and CG. Larry Flesner has been reporting on his airplane and the results are very interesting (to me). Larry's lady has an 18" stretch and is almost stock in terms of rigging - 3.5 degrees positive at the root, 3 degrees washout and the stab at zero. He has not checked, but almost sure his thrustline is zero /zero. His airctaft requires modest up-trim in the cruise (approx. 140mph) with a near neutral CG and something under MAUW. His aircraft demonstrates the classic KR nose down sit in the cruise and returns an immediate (gentle) down pitch when the thrust component is removed. Next we will talk him into establishing the hands-off glide speed with the cruise trim setting. For this reason I was happy to see your email - when you get a chance, please give us some more info (modifications, decaulage /indidence, washout etc. Steve J ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 08:38:39 -0500 From: larry flesner Subject: KR> Pitch sensitvity To: KRnet Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040430083839.007bd4c0@pop.midwest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >3 big prop dia. about 73" ( max rpm prop. of Rotax 912 is 2400 ) 4 C.G. >at 22% Wing chord , in flight test, and max rear C.G. of 27% Franco. >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Larry's lady has an 18" >stretch >Steve J +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Steve, My KR has a 24" stretch. All else is basiclly built to plans as far as the rigging goes as you suggested. Franco, In your earlier post you stated your prop was 1600 X 1600 mm. A "www" conversion says that is a 63"D X 63"P. Is that correct? Also, I'm surprised you can turn that much prop that fast with 80hp. My 0-200 is turning a 60"D X 64"P Ed Sterba prop at about 2600 to 2650 rpm in cruise at full throttle and 156 smph. You did a good job on your KR and I'll be interested to hear about future flight test and performance numbers. As far as pitch sensitivity goes, I feel the average pilot can handle a KR. Some may need a bit more training than others to prepare themselves. Some will be able to just jump in and go and others will need to get their skills up to speed. Most builders will know which group to asign themselves to and if they listen to that little voice in their head it should all turn out alright. It's the poorly built KRs and pilots that aren't ready for the KR but fly it anyway and then scare the H#** out of themselves that give the KR a bad reputation. Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 08:38:57 -0500 From: larry flesner Subject: RE: KR> flight test To: KRnet Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040430083857.007bfc50@pop.midwest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I would be interrested to know what your elevator position is at cruise if >you have the trim neutral and are holding whatever elevator you need to fly >level. Could you neutralize the trim and somehow mark the stick position >needed for level flight then see what elevator deflection that works out to >when you get on the ground? >Brian Kraut +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Brian, I would have no accurate way of measuring that small of a stick displacement. My stick (dual) is perhaps a bit taller than most KR's but even so the actual displacement of the stick from climbout to cruise is very small. It's more of a pressure change that is felt and relieved with trim than actual stick displacement. If it's drag reduction and speed you're after you will probably want the new airfoil and then all my observations are "out the window" anyway. Mark Langford's KR should be flying this year and he will be able to answer the many KR rigging questions with a lot more accuracy than I can. He has an adjustable H.S. Someone with more knowhow than me might be able to take a computer program and "reverse" engineer the numbers to tell us what angle the H.S. should be. My KR is baciclly plans built with a 24" stretch. The C.G. on the test flight was approx. mid-range. My tab is 4" X 10" and was deflected at an angle in the low 20's as I recall. That will of course beg the question "do we want a perfectly neutral rigging" at cruise or some down force on the tail for stability, at what C.G. range would you want the trim at zero, and does the tab/elevator deflection for trim add more or less drag than the H.S. set at an angle? My guess is that, given all the same components, the whole range of possibilities from one extreem to the other will not make a 3 to 5 mph difference in the outcome. Throw in the new wing and you've changed the game. This is all too much to contemplate! I need a "flight fix"!! :-) Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 18:28:18 +0200 From: "Stephen Jacobs" Subject: RE: KR> Pitch sensitvity To: "'KRnet'" Message-ID: <000001c42ed0$25960340$9a64a8c0@homedesktop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 1600 X 1600 mm. A "www" conversion says that is a 63"D X 63"P. Is that correct .................................................. Roger that Mr. F 1600mm / 25.4 = 62.99, viz: 1600 x 1600 = 63 x 63 I need to learn more about the effect of torque so I can better understand why different engine /prop combinations produce conflicting results. Have a great weekend Steve J ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 19:21:57 +0200 From: "Stephen Jacobs" Subject: RE: KR> Pitch sensitvity To: "'KRnet'" Message-ID: <000501c42ed7$a76bc240$ca64a8c0@homedesktop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Steve, My KR has a 24" stretch. ............................ Sorry mate - how can I sell you short by 6". S ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 01:11:05 +0000 From: "orma" Subject: KR> Type 4 buildup To: krnet@mylist.net, mjgill@webone.com.au Message-ID: <20040501011105.31137.qmail@host203.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" give Great Planes an order and be done with it. Hi Murray and KR Net I think you are right on that one. If I did not have a type 4 and was just starting out, buying a complet package is the way to go. For the last couple of days I have been trying to balance the rod and pistons. Today I completed the task and have 1254 grams for each set of pistons and rods. All of the wrist pins have identical weight. The crankshaft shaft has been deep drill and the key way cut. It has also been polished and will accept standard bearings. The cam and oil pump gears have already been installed on the crank. I am still awaiting the cam from Calif. I expected my case to be finished today and i guess it is not. I spent the day cleaning other parts in prep. Monday I will start to assemble the crank, rods and pistons. The heads that I am using are in the shop as is by case. They are being opened for the 103 mm pistons. The heads that I plan to use are from an Ex KR driver that lost a valve and landed in a corn field. The heads had been drilled for the second plug hole. I plan to use the 009 along with a Slick mag for backup. The shop is telling me that the valves are made of two different metals and that they were not good for our application. They are being replaced with stainless steel valves. More update later. Orma ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 22:06:44 -0400 From: "Brian Kraut" Subject: RE: KR> flight test To: "KRnet" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I was wondering if the decalage is correct with the RAF-48 wing. I might just go ahead and make my stab adjustable also. Maybe even connect the adjustable stab to a trim wheel. Brian Kraut Engineering Alternatives, Inc. www.engalt.com -----Original Message----- From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-bounces@mylist.net]On Behalf Of larry flesner Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 9:39 AM To: KRnet Subject: RE: KR> flight test >I would be interrested to know what your elevator position is at cruise if >you have the trim neutral and are holding whatever elevator you need to fly >level. Could you neutralize the trim and somehow mark the stick position >needed for level flight then see what elevator deflection that works out to >when you get on the ground? >Brian Kraut +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Brian, I would have no accurate way of measuring that small of a stick displacement. My stick (dual) is perhaps a bit taller than most KR's but even so the actual displacement of the stick from climbout to cruise is very small. It's more of a pressure change that is felt and relieved with trim than actual stick displacement. If it's drag reduction and speed you're after you will probably want the new airfoil and then all my observations are "out the window" anyway. Mark Langford's KR should be flying this year and he will be able to answer the many KR rigging questions with a lot more accuracy than I can. He has an adjustable H.S. Someone with more knowhow than me might be able to take a computer program and "reverse" engineer the numbers to tell us what angle the H.S. should be. My KR is baciclly plans built with a 24" stretch. The C.G. on the test flight was approx. mid-range. My tab is 4" X 10" and was deflected at an angle in the low 20's as I recall. That will of course beg the question "do we want a perfectly neutral rigging" at cruise or some down force on the tail for stability, at what C.G. range would you want the trim at zero, and does the tab/elevator deflection for trim add more or less drag than the H.S. set at an angle? My guess is that, given all the same components, the whole range of possibilities from one extreem to the other will not make a 3 to 5 mph difference in the outcome. Throw in the new wing and you've changed the game. This is all too much to contemplate! I need a "flight fix"!! :-) Larry Flesner _______________________________________ to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 22:20:43 -0500 From: larry flesner Subject: KR> flight test/decalage To: KRnet Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040430222043.00795620@pop.midwest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I was wondering if the decalage is correct with the RAF-48 wing. I might >just go ahead and make my stab adjustable also. Maybe even connect the >adjustable stab to a trim wheel. >Brian Kraut +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Piper was doing that 50+ years ago. The KR is a much smaller and lighter aircraft and the additional weight of an adjustable stab will have a greater effect than on my Tripacer. If you haven't built the wing yet why not consider the new wing? If you go with the RAF 48 you might consider a different lead edge as in the KR100. One of the previous owners said there was no change to the lead edge but I have a RR video with the designer of the KR 100 saying the wing was an RAF48 with a redesigned lead edge. As to what the change was I haven't a clue but I'd sure like to have five minutes alone with the aircraft and some tracing paper. :-) Larry Flesner ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ See KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html End of KRnet Digest, Vol 346, Issue 51 ************************************** ================================== ABC Amber Outlook Converter v4.20 Trial version ==================================