From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net To: John Bouyea Subject: KRnet Digest, Vol 346, Issue 90 Date: 5/31/2004 9:00:34 PM Send KRnet mailing list submissions to krnet@mylist.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mylist.net/listinfo/krnet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to krnet-request@mylist.net You can reach the person managing the list at krnet-owner@mylist.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of KRnet digest..." Today's Topics: 1. RE: Painting (Brian Kraut) 2. Re: RE: Painting (Mark Langford) 3. Re: RE: Painting (Dan Heath) 4. 2S canopy (Brian Kraut) 5. RE: RE: Painting (Stephen Jacobs) 6. Re: firewall installation (Mark Langford) 7. Sad day-correction (Dene Collett (SA)) 8. RE: firewall installation/second battery (Brian Kraut) 9. RE: RE: Painting (Dan Heath) 10. RE: firewall installation (Stephen Jacobs) 11. RE: engine mount fasteners (Mike) 12. Re: firewall installation (Mark Langford) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 10:24:52 -0400 From: "Brian Kraut" Subject: KR> RE: Painting To: "Dan Heath" Cc: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I am copying this to the list hoping that I will be able to help someone else also. I am not an expert painter, but there are several on the list. If you can get a good picture of the orange peel and post a link to it I am sure that someone could help even more. I do have a few suggestions. First, what kind of gun are you using? At first I was using a siphon feed touch up gun. I kept having problems after shooting out about half the cup where the nozzle would start to clog and the gun would kind of sputter out the paint and give me a surface that looked like sandpaper. It also made a ton of fine overspray that would float in the air and start to dry then would settle on the surface. I will never paint again without a good HVLP gun. Harbor Freight sells a great gun that is supposedly an exact copy of a several hundred dollar DeVilbiss gun. That is what I use now. Here is a link: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=43430 If the link doesn't work, it is model 43430-8VGA and is currently on sale for $39.99 Second, buy a bunch of tack cloths at your local paint suppy store and go over the entire surface just before you paint. That will get off all of the dust, etc. I was using a regular rag at first and didn't realize until I got some good tack cloths that all a regular rag does is make more dust. One thing I discovered is that you can't do very light coats and get a good surface. I had the same idea that a bunch of light coats instead of a few heavy ones would be better, but when you spray there is a minimum amount of paint you must apply to get the surface to wet out. Very light coats will never give you a shiney surface. You need to apply enough paint for the surface to get glossy, then stop right there before it starts tu run. Practice on a piece of cardboard held vertically so you can see when it starts to look wet and when it starts to run. I am assuming that the texture you are describing is from to light a coat. The most important wisdom I can impart is that you can not have enough light when you spray. You need to be able to look at the surface while you are spraying and see exactly when it gets wet and shiney looking. White is the hardest color to see this with and you need a lot of light to see when this happens. You also need a lot of light hitting the surface at an angle and you need to look at the surface from the other angle to see when it gets wet and shiney looking. Buy yourself at least four of the cheap two bulb 4' flourescent light fixtures at Home Depot for a start. The more, the better. I also found that with a lot of paints you can turn a bad paint job to a beautiful glossy surface by wet sanding down to 2,000 grit sandpaper. Obviously, this is a lot more work than starting with a nice surface that doesn't have to be sanded. There was a good series of articles on painting in Sport Aviation a little while back that also would be very helpfull. Brian Kraut Engineering Alternatives, Inc. www.engalt.com -----Original Message----- From: Dan Heath [mailto:DanRH@AllTel.net] Sent: Monday, May 31, 2004 8:12 AM To: Brian Kraut Subject: Painting Brian, I think that the amount of "orange peel" or "texture" that I ended up with in my finish, is not acceptable for the wings. Do you know how to prevent it. I am using an acrylic enamel with hardener and slow reducer. 8 to 1 to 1. I thought that more reducer would cause it to flow out, but that did not happen. I am trying to put on several light coats instead of a few light coats. Do you suppose that I am not giving it enough paint at one time? I wish that I knew the causes of this condition. I was going to paint the wings today, but the weather is very humid and I am not sure that I want to risk the same condition on the wings. If you have any knowledge to share with me on this, I certainly will appreciate it. See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics "There is a time for building and a time for flying, and the time for building has long since expired." Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC See you in Mt. Vernon - 2004 - KR Gathering See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 10:06:45 -0500 From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> RE: Painting To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <006601c44720$e5843970$1202a8c0@basement> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Dan, I'm not an expert, but I play one on KRnet. I've painted a few cars over the years, most recently my Scirocco, and I helped out with an Alfa Romeo last week (mostly mixing paint and pointing out placed he'd missed, and what he was doing wrong). What Brian says is true, you've got to put it on wet. Wetter than you'd think. The guy painting the Alfa was just dusting it on from 12"-16" away, and was headed for a really nasty paint job. I kept telling him to get closer and slow it down so it was wet out and gloss, but he was worried about runs. At one point he started feeling queazy from the fumes and had to step out, so I painted his hood for him while he was gone. I got about 6"-8" away and really poured it on. Of course that's a horizontal surface and you can get away with that for sure. I eventually got the teacher to come in and tell him that indeed he needed to put it on a lot thicker, and he gave him a demo. After that (and it's a good thing, because we were starting the third coat of color), he really slowed down and got closer, and it started looking fabulous. When he finished, it was one fantastic looking car, with exactly one run on one fender where he'd been way too close and too slow (he wasn't the most methodical painter I've ever seen). Lots of light is indeed important. I'm going to build a paint booth during our next remodel job, and I already have 24 four-tube fluorscent light fixtures that I'm going to put in it (they are 277v fixtures being replaced at work, that I've modified to run on 110V). It's a whole lot easier to sand out and polish a few runs that it is to do the entire car. Err on the wet side, I'd say. Indeed, it can all be sanded out with 1200 or 2000 and rubbed out and polished, but that's a lot of work, and there's a real risk of going through the paint to the primer, especially if it's a thin job. The good news is that a lot of the planes that show up at the Gatherings are orange peeled to, but they still look great, and nobody even notices. It doesn't have to be perfect. I'd be tempted to live with it and worry about it later, maybe even a few years down the road when you've thought of a better paint scheme and need to do a few repairs anyway. Take my advice, "there's a time for building and a time for flying, and it's time to fly that thing". (maybe I heard that somewhere)... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama N56ML "at" hiwaay.net see KR2S project at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 11:38:57 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "Dan Heath" Subject: Re: KR> RE: Painting To: "krnet@mylist.net" Message-ID: <40BB5191.000005.02896@COMPUTER> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Mark and Brian, Thanks. I am going to lay it on, on the wings and after it is flying, I may try to buff out the stub wings, but for the fuse, I won't mess with it unless it needs fixing and right now, I don't consider it broke. You are right, the time for building has long since expired. I think I was trying tooooo hard to make it perfect. See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics "There is a time for building and a time for flying, and the time for building has long since expired." Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC See you in Mt. Vernon - 2004 - KR Gathering See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 12:56:57 -0400 From: "Brian Kraut" Subject: KR> 2S canopy To: "KRnet" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I realize it is a long shot, but does anyone have a clear 2S canopy that they would want to trade for a smoked one? Brian Kraut Engineering Alternatives, Inc. www.engalt.com ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 19:56:35 +0200 From: "Stephen Jacobs" Subject: RE: KR> RE: Painting To: "'KRnet'" Message-ID: <000001c44738$a1953f30$3064a8c0@home> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I think I was trying tooooo hard to make it perfect. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Hey Dan No such thing mate - it often takes the amateur substantially more time to get it just right, but he will have it no other way. The pro gets the 90% result without much effort, but we push for the holy mackerel result. We know that it will take more effort (and maybe a few tries) - but it will ultimately be that 10% better (than the pro). The net will not accept pictures - if you want I will send you pics of my beloved Juliette (Cherokee 6) that had a finish that no pro could be bothered to achieve. For the guys that spray all day every day - Ok, for the rest of us that seek terrific results with an occasional task - here is what works best for me. http://www.currys.com/airbrush/prodinfo1.asp?prodID=90&SubcatID=10 That is Canadian dollars - I am sure that it will cost even less in the US. I have looked far and wide for a gravity gun that gives the same results - they are pretty good, but just not the same. Mix all the paint you need for the task up front and have a helper on hand to help you top up - the gun does not hold much. You need a breather anyway and a chance to wipe the gun's nose. (important - it will accumulate a blob and dump on the best part of your paint job.) Orange peel generally means you need a bit more thinners. Stir the paint with a 3/8" dowel - remove the dowel and count the drops that come off the dowel. 8 - 12 drops works for me (after the initial flow) - you find your own mixture - the important thing is to gain a picture of the paint flowing off the end off the dowel when the mix is right for your gun /pressure /paint - then remember it. I assume that all the other obvious bits are in place - mask, air filter, water trap, regulator. Plenty lighting has been mentioned - vital that you can follow the wetting as you move along. It will be right just before it will run. The first coat is a dust coat - get about 75% of the primer covered (get the primer 75% covered?). Then immediately follow with the "flow coat" - Langford is starting to get the idea - but it can be more controlled than he says if you have the lighting. Get your head (eye) into the right position (angle) and you will literally see the matt dust coat wet out as the spray front moves along - it will be obvious when it is just right - even on the vertical surfaces - provided you can see clearly the point of application (at the right angle). The ideal angle will be relatively flat - you need to be sighting the surface (where the paint is being deposited) at maybe 30 degrees to the surface so as to see the paint line as you move the gun along. The horizontal surfaces are more tolerant to a bit extra - the lack of thrixopic properties in most 2 part paints calls for more care on the vertical surfaces. In the past, runs gave me great chunks of heartache - invariably I would sand the whole section down and start again - stupid. Runs take a bit longer to cure - particularly if they are bad runs. Cut away the excess of paint with a very sharp scalpel /exacto blade while the paint is "green" and then let it cure completely. DO NOT sand it without a block. I made up small sanding blocks - typically 2"x 1" with a thickness to suite. Wrap the water paper around three sides and work away at the excess paint with plenty water. Start with a coarse grade - 220 grit - and watch carefully. When the edges of the blob you are sanding get close to merging with the surrounding surface, (wipe frequently with paper towel) change to 360 until the edge of the run starts to merge - then 600 briefly (always using the block), followed by 800 and 1000. Then polish with rubbing / burnishing compound - I use Brasso. Even if you removed a bit too much and the primer is sort of visible through the paint - this will not be obvious as the gloss wins the eye. I wish someone had told me this along time ago. Steve J Mark L - I was interested to see piano hinges on the lower cowl area of your airplane. I thought that I had studied all the pictures on your site - but this had escaped me - you are using piano hinges to attach the lower cowl? Very neat, complete and well thought out installation - I shall be referring to these pages constantly during the engine install bit. I assume the Al tubing on the extreme right next to the oil cooler duct are fuel lines - two of them? Is one a return line or is the Left /Right selector in front of the firewall somewhere? ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 13:20:07 -0500 From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> firewall installation To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <009001c4473b$e728f480$1202a8c0@basement> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Steve J wrote: > Mark L - I was interested to see piano hinges on the lower cowl area > of your airplane. I thought that I had studied all the pictures on > your site - but this had escaped me - you are using piano hinges to > attach the lower cowl? Yep, along with most of the rest of the plane....aft deck, forward deck (to which the canopy is connected), cowling halves, lower cowling. Were it not for having to unscrew the two bolts that hold the gas struts in place and five screws that hold the top cowling on, I could remove the whole top and front of the airplane (spinner to tail) in about three minutes with no tools. I can't wait to do that at the Gathering and show people how a KR is built! The accessiblity that's gained is invaluable to making modifications or repairs, not to mention inspections. I'm sure it cost me a few pounds, but I think it was worth it. > Very neat, complete and well thought out installation - I shall be > referring to these pages constantly during the engine install bit. I > assume the Al tubing on the extreme right next to the oil cooler duct > are fuel lines - two of them? Is one a return line or is the Left > /Right selector in front of the firewall somewhere? Yes, 3/8" fuel lines. Originally I was planning on using CIS injection (and I might still, eventually), so one of those is a return line to the main tank. Lately though I've concocted the idea of a totally redundant electrical/fuel supply system. What this means is that by flipping one double pole double throw switch on the panel I can switch from one ignition coil, condenser, battery, and fuel pump to a whole 'nuther set. So the second fuel line is going to be used to hook that backup fuel pump to, although it has no screen in the tank. That way if something stumbles, you flip one switch and replace every possible electrical problem area with a completely new set. That eliminates a lot of troubleshooting (and head scratching)in about one second, and allows one to concentrate on flying the plane, rather than troubleshooting the problem. The backup battery should let me fly for another hour, which ought to be plenty of time to put it on the ground and see what the deal is. At runup I'd swap systems as a sort of "mag check" process. I don't have a "left/right" tank setup, but a header wing tank and an auxillary wing tank. See http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/wingtank.html for more details on that. Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama N56ML "at" hiwaay.net see KR2S project at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 18:40:30 +0200 From: "Dene Collett \(SA\)" Subject: KR> Sad day-correction To: "krnet" Message-ID: <000601c4473d$c7730e80$37e5fea9@telkomsa127179> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" The name of the chap that crashed was Allan Honeybourne and not "Honeyball" as stated in my previous post. His partner's name is Ricky De Agrela(sp) Dene Collett KR2S-RT builder Port Elizabeth South Africa mailto: dene.collett@telkomsa.net P.S: checkout www.whisperaircraft.com ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 14:53:47 -0400 From: "Brian Kraut" Subject: RE: KR> firewall installation/second battery To: "KRnet" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I was thinking of using two small batteries instead of one bigger one and running one ignition off of each one. They would charge through one alternator with a diode battery isolator. For starting I would have dual small starter solenoids that would parallel both batteries for the start. Of course, I wold have two busses in the plane with means to transfer loads between them. The Dynon and a few other things would have inputs from both batteries. I really don't like the idea an ignition system that would let the engine die if the battery died and this would fix tat problem. Brian Kraut Engineering Alternatives, Inc. www.engalt.com -----Original Message----- From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-bounces@mylist.net]On Behalf Of Mark Langford Sent: Monday, May 31, 2004 2:20 PM To: KRnet Subject: Re: KR> firewall installation The backup battery should let me fly for another hour, which ought to be plenty of time to put it on the ground and see what the deal is. At runup I'd swap systems as a sort of "mag check" process. Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama N56ML "at" hiwaay.net see KR2S project at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford _______________________________________ to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 19:47:30 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "Dan Heath" Subject: RE: KR> RE: Painting To: "krnet@mylist.net" Message-ID: <40BBC412.000005.03536@COMPUTER> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Steven J. I would love to see the pics. I have DSL, so it won't take long to receive. DanRH@AllTel.net Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC See you in Mt. Vernon - 2004 - KR Gathering ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 03:19:55 +0200 From: "Stephen Jacobs" Subject: RE: KR> firewall installation To: "'KRnet'" Message-ID: <000001c44776$901a1d00$de64a8c0@home> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Were it not for having to unscrew the two bolts that hold the gas struts in place and five screws that hold the top cowling on, I could remove the whole top and front of the airplane (spinner to tail) in about three minutes with no tools. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Hey Mark I can see the many benefits of being able to open up the airplane in this manner and I have contemplated doing like wise - many times. My concerns are: = wood /composite by nature will make it tricky to avoid an obvious seam. I considered using a beading to seal the gap, improve the appearance and avoid movement that would lead to wear. You appear to have this well under control - no seams are evident in any of the pics. = Structural integrity. I accept that the KR boat is adequate and requires no support from the turtle deck. Making it one piece must surely contribute to the rigidity and torsional strength. I have a pet fear of flutter and want the airframe (in general) to be up to the beating if ever I experience flutter on any control surface. = Roll-over protection. I would prefer this to be an intrinsic part of the boat structure - securely anchored to more than just the top stringer. I cannot see any pics on your site that show how you handled the roll over bar. My current design hang-up is the rudder pedals - bolt them to the floor or hang them from above? Due to this curiosity I have a close look at what others have done every chance I get. Every time I look at the pic of your installation (before the FW was fitted) - it bothers me that you may not have enough leverage for the braking action. The pedal pivots at about its centre and thus leaves maybe 2" of pedal above the pivot. Looks like it may be difficult to apply adequate breaking pressure - no matter what part of your foot is applied to the pedal. 56ML looks very, very good in the picture taken from above (pic below the plenum). The tail feathers look a bit bigger than stock? - maybe coz there are no wings to give that perspective. Take care Steve J Zambia Jayquip(at)microlink.zm ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 21:51:53 -0400 From: "Mike" Subject: KR> RE: engine mount fasteners To: Message-ID: <002601c4477b$04ff3480$6501a8c0@shrpsr01.tn.comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I am about to order bolts to fasten my engine mount to firewall and wanted to double check this, I need 4.5 in long X 3/8 dia. bolts the AN equivalent is, AN6-43 right? I have temporarily installed it with ordinary grade 8's, I know they would hold, but I think "AN" is "THE" right way and they aren't that much more. Oh I have also been wondering anyone know how much a wing (outer) weighs? I have 9.8 gal tank, aileron w/balance, attach fittings, and nav lights & wiring, weight is 49 lbs. Thanks, Mike ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 20:51:19 -0500 From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> firewall installation To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <015801c4477a$ef4f4b70$1202a8c0@basement> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Steve Jacobs wrote: >Making it one piece must > surely contribute to the rigidity and torsional strength Yes, but do you need more than is necessary? If that's a compromise, I'll choose better accessibility for inspection instead. > I cannot see any pics on your site that show how you handled the roll > over bar. There are two roll bars. The aft deck one is basically pinned, and then held in place vertically with the piano hinges, and the other roll bar is built into the canopy frame, which overhangs and helps retain the aft deck as well. This overhanging lip also directs any airflow that escapes the canopy in a direction parallel to the skin, for less drag. The lip also keeps the rain out. >it bothers me that you > may not have enough leverage for the braking action. I forget exactly where I got the geometry, but it's a fairly common one. If it works for everybody else, it ought to work for me. It certainly can't be worse than heel brakes, which simple push directly in on the shaft of the brake cylinder. I'm not worried about it. If it doesn't work well, it's easy enough to fix, since I have full access to the rudder pedals. >The tail feathers look a bit bigger than stock? 6" longer on each end, with elevator area retained same as stock by altering chord length. This might be a good time to point out that just about everything on my plane is untested, unproven, and subject to change as I get smarter. Plagiarize at your own risk! Still connecting wires... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama N56ML "at" hiwaay.net see KR2S project at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ See KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html End of KRnet Digest, Vol 346, Issue 90 ************************************** ================================== ABC Amber Outlook Converter v4.20 Trial version ==================================