From: krnet-bounces+johnbou=speakeasy.net@mylist.net on behalf of krnet-request@mylist.net Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2004 5:27 AM To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: KRnet Digest, Vol 277, Issue 1 Send KRnet mailing list submissions to krnet@mylist.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mylist.net/listinfo/krnet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to krnet-request@mylist.net You can reach the person managing the list at krnet-owner@mylist.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of KRnet digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Engines (Scott Cable) 2. Engines (Colin & Bev Rainey) 3. Calendars (Dean Cooper) 4. Re: Engines:Very Well Stated & Amen! (Scott Cable) 5. Construction time (Steve and Lori McGee) 6. Re: New KR2S eBay Listing (VIRGIL N SALISBURY) 7. Re: NOT KR>Medical Blood Pressure Meds. (VIRGIL N SALISBURY) 8. Re: Calendars (Ray Fuenzalida) 9. Re: Calendars (Alex) 10. Re: Edo-Aire question for the net (JOHN WENZ) 11. Re: Engines (Carlos Romero) 12. Engines 13. Re: KR-2S & 150 hp Franklin : These 7 things (VIRGIL N SALISBURY) 14. test message only - changing email addresses (Barry Kruyssen) 15. Larry Severson (Martindale Family) 16. RE: Fun Friday KR static system el cheapo (Dana Overall) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 13:36:11 -0800 (PST) From: Scott Cable To: KRnet Subject: Re: KR>Engines Message-ID: <20040110213611.17670.qmail@web40809.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <00d401c3d7ad$62820cb0$f2452141@RaineyDay> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 1 Colin, Thank-you, I will respond to your additional comments below in CAPS- for the sake of Clarity, not SHOUTING! This dialog is intended to be friendly, not Tense... --- Colin & Bev Rainey wrote: > Scott & netters, > Good points well taken. However some are > distortions, and some are responses to my > miscommunications, which I will clarify now. In 15 years of drivability repair, I have lost > count of how many customers came into the shop > telling me that weeks to months ago, the problem > indicator lamp was lit, but nothing appeared to be > wrong so they kept driving. Only once it became a > problem did they attempt to have it fixed. COLIN, ALTHOUGH I AGREE WITH YOU IN PART OF WHAT YOU'RE SAYING HERE, THE FAILURE MODE OF ELECTRONICS MAKE THE USE OF SUCH DEVICES IN AIRCRAFT UNDESIRABLE. THEY WORK PERFECTLY RIGHT UP TO THE NANOSECOND BEFORE THEY FAIL. Such things would not be allowed to be ignored if used in an aircraft because the regs would render that > aircraft as un-airworthy. It would have to be fixed. Secondly, pilots would not fly these aircraft with such warnings on without having them corrected, knowing the potential consequences. IN EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT, WHO IS GOING TO PUT A CHECK ENGINE LIGHT ON THE PANEL? WHAT REQUIRES SOMEONE TO DO SO? MOST BUILDERS WOULD EITHER OPT OUT, OR SIMPLY NOT INCORPORATE SUCH A LIGHT INTO THE PANEL. WHEN THE COMPUTER DECIDES TO ENTER THE LIMP-IN MODE, THAT ENGINE IS MOST LIKELY TO STOP MAKING ENOUGH POWER TO KEEP THE AIRCRAFT AIRBORNE. > > I agree Scott that in many cases the auto > crankshaft was not designed for such loads. The > Corvair engine, and VW engine are two examples where > there are acceptable applications for their use with > direct drive. HOWEVER, NEITHER ENGINE IS APPROVED FOR AEROBATIC USE, AND I KNOW THE CORVAIR IS NOT APPROVED, NOR RECOMMENDED FOR IFR USE. ONE INTERESTING SIDE NOTE: THE VW BOXER ENGINE WAS DESIGNED BY DR. FERDINAND PORSCHE FROM: AN AIRCRAFT ENGINE. IT'S NOT SURPRISING TO ME WHY THAT ENGINE HAS BEEN SO SUCCESSFUL AS AN EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT ENGINE. This has been done for almost as long > if not longer than the stable of Lycs & Contis. > Great Plains, and several other companies encourage > the use of PSRU units on most every application of > an auto engine, for the added insurance of > reliability. Belted Air Power has a very successful > V6 & V8 PSRU for use with the Chevy 4.3, & 5.7 > engines, which completely remove the foreign loads > from the crankshaft, and maintain loads that were > designed into such engines. COLIN, AGAIN I PARTIALLY AGREE, HOWEVER WITH A PSRU, YOU ADD ADDITIONAL WEIGHT, BUT EVEN MORE IMPORTANTLY HAVE ADDED ADDITIONAL FAILURE POINTS. BELTS ARE NOTORIUS FOR STRIPPING AND BREAKING. AGAIN, EVEN THE PSRU's ARE NOT DESIGNED FOR AEROBATIC MANUVUERS Where people mess up > using these engines is inadequate cooling, and > attempting to modify the performance beyond reliable > limits for cars, much less aircraft. Conservatively > built, as William Wynne teaches the building of the > Corvair engine, any auto engine can be matched to a > PSRU, and turned at an appropriate cruise rpm for > good longevity and performance. Similar to the > turbine powered turboprop aircraft, but with better affordability. > The Jet A burning aircraft engines under evaluation here, and already > certified in Europe, started life as an AUTO diesel engine, and > was successfully converted. > > I agree with Scott that using the CTS or > Northstar engine would be a nightmare, unless you > have a large aircraft, and larger budget! Their > design does not lend itself to easy maintenance and > complex programming makes practical upkeep nearly > impossible. However, utilizing a simple electronic > ignition module distributor, which has a simple > transistor trigger to replace the points gains one a > great deal of more consistent operation. AGAIN AS WILLIAM WYNNE SUGGESTS, THE FAILURE MODE OF THE ELECTRONICS MAKES THIS OPTION LESS THAN DESIREABLE. THERE ARE GPU ENGINES RUNNING OIL RIG / OIL PUMPING STATIONS THAT HAVE TRANSISTORIZED MAGNETOS, BUT LOOK AT THE APPLICATION, IF THE ELECTRONICS SUDDENLY STOP WORKING, PEOPLE DON'T DIE... IT'S NON-FLIGHT HARDWARE. I do not encourage the use of multi-point fuel injection for the unknowing, simply because it has alot of extras that need to be dealt with. If a second ignition system is desired, one can drill out the heads as mine are on the VW, or adapt a Nissan or Ford 8 plug head to their application, and have dual ignitions. AGAIN, I PARTIALLY AGREE, DUAL PLUGS HOWEVER ARE ONLY A START. WHAT ABOUT THE REST? DO THE IGNITION SYSTEMS HAVE A SINGLE POINT OF FAILURE? FOR INSTANCE A SINGLE DISTRIBUTOR CAP AND ROTOR? IF SO, YOU ARE BACK TO A SINGLE POINT OF FAILURE. > Redundancy is as easy as having a second dedicated > battery to just the ignition system. COLIN, NOT SO QUICK, AGAIN, REDUNDANT SYSTEMS ARE COMPLETELY INDEPENDANT OF EACH OTHER. KEY WORD BEING COMPLETELY. SIMPLY ADDING A BATTERY DEDICATED TO JUST THE IGNITION SYSTEM IS NOT A REDUNDANT SYSTEM. IN FACT JUST THE OPPOSITE, HOW IS THE BATTERY FLIGHT MAINTAINED? HOW IS THE BATTERY CHARGED AND INSURED READY FOR FLIGHT? WE'VE ALL HEARD ABOUT HOW FLASHLIGHTS ARE CYLINDRICAL METAL CONTAINERS FOR THE PURPOSE OF STORING DEAD BATTERIES....IT'S TO EASY TO NEGLECT SUCH A SYSTEM IN MY OPINION. BACK ON REDUNDANCY: PORSCHE EVEN TRIED IT WITH MOONEY, HERE'S AN ARTICLE ABOUT IT: http://www.seqair.com/Other/PFM/PorschePFM.html Spark advance and smoother running, more economical operation, and better performance for the dollar are good enough reasons for me to stay with auto engines. Just the purchase of one alternator/regulator combination for a Lycoming, (which by the way is Motorcraft, same as what is on their trucks of similar years, except for the yellow tag, & voltage settings) NOT EXACTLY, THE YELLOW TAG IS MORE THAN JUST A PIECE OF PAPER & VOLTAGE SETTINGS. THERE ARE PLENTY OF ALTERNATOR AND STARTER REBUILD FACILITIES THAT HAVE BEEN "WARNED" BY THE FAA ABOUT REBUILDING FLIGHT HARDWARE WITH AUTOMOTIVE PARTS. THERE ALSO HAVE BEEN NUMEROUS FAILURES OF SUCH PARTS THAT PROMPTED SUCH ACTION. THERE ARE REASONS WHY FLIGHT PARTS ARE MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE. TESTING AND QUALITY CONTROL TO NAME A FEW, NOT TO MENTION INSURANCE REQUIRED BY A CERTIFIED OVERHAUL FACILITY.(THAT'S A WHOLE BAGA WORMS I'D RATHER NOT OPEN) and I can buy > all the parts necessary to completely rebuild an > auto engine. > > Given apples to apples, if the same care and > attention is given to the auto conversion that > certified engines receive, there will be no contest: > the auto engine will far outperform the aviation > version. This is even supported by such companies > as Mattituck who openly reports manufacturing > defects of design to the original O-360, which they > have designed out in their experimental version of > the O-360 kit engine. The only reason that Honda, > Ford, Chrysler, and GM left the aviation engine > markets after once having been there is due to the > major hoops that must be jumped through for > certification versus such a thin market. In short, > it was not profitable to stay, not that they could > not design good engines, or didn't have good > engines. > > I simply want all netters to see both sides and > not have a narrowly presented viewpoint concerning > the use of auto engines in aircraft, but rather see > the true strong points and short comings that each > has. My opinions..... YOU MENTIONED IN YOUR EALIER POST ABOUT BUILDING 10 CORVAIRS FOR THE PRICE OF ONE FLIGHT ENGINE. A NEW 0-360 IS ADVERTISED IN KITPLANES FOR $17,000, CARB, MAGS, EXHAUST-COMPLETE. YOU WOULD BE VERY HARD PRESSED TO BUILD 10 COMPLETE CORVAIR CONVERSIONS, LIKELY EQUIPPED FOR $17,000. YOU MIGHT BE ABLE TO BUILD 4 CORVAIR CONVERSIONS, BUT THEY WOULD NEVER BE ABLE TO PERFORM IN A LIKE MANNER, OR WITH THE SAME POWER OF A O-360 (180 HP). I.E: IT WOULDN'T BE AEROBATIC OR IFR CAPABLE, AND WOULD HAVE ONLY 2/3RDS THE POWER. WHAT THIS DISCUSSION IS ABOUT, AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED, IS NOT TO DISUADE THE USE OF AUTO CONVERSIONS, BUT TO ENLIGHTEN SOME FOLKS ABOUT THEIR USE AND THE POTENTIAL CONSEQUENSES AND LIMITATIONS OF SUCH USE. FLIGHT IS VERY ENJOYABLE PASTIME, BUT NOT WITHOUT RISKS. FLIGHT HARDWARE IN EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT HAVE OFTEN FAILED, NOT BECAUSE OF AN INHERANT FAULT IN THE FLIGHT HARDWARE, BUT BECAUSE THERE WAS A DEFIECENCY IN THE APPLICATION AND/OR INSTALLATION. AS AN EXAMPLE, I READ ABOUT A EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT OWNER THAT WAS COMPLAINING ABOUT HIS O-360 OVERHEATING, TRASHING THE CYLINDERS, WARPING THE CASES, ETC. ETC. DIRECTLY BLAMED HIS OVERHEATING PROBLEMS ON THE PILE OF JUNK ENGINE, TO QUOTE HIM. FURTHER INQUIRY'S REVEALED SEVERAL PROBLEMS WITH HIS INSTALLATION: A CUSTOM "LOW PROFILE" COWLING THAT ALTHOUGH LOOKED NICE, IT DIDN'T PROVIDE ANYTHING NEAR THE REQUIRED AIRFLOW VOLUME REQUIRED TO COOL THE ENGINE. NO COWL FLAPS, AND A EXHAUST TUCKED RIGHT UP AGAINST THE CYLINDERS. IT BOGGLES THE MIND TO EVEN THINK THE AIRPALNE HE MADE IT THROUGH TAXI TESTING. MY POINT BEING, IS THAT MANY EXPERIMENTERS NEGLECT THE OVERALL PICTURE, UNDER ENGINEER A SYSTEM, THAN RATHER ACCEPT THE FAILURE CAUSED BT THEMSELVES, BLAME THE HARDWARE FOR THE FAILURE. JUST MY OPINION..... ===== Scott Cable KR-2S # 735 Wright City, MO s2cable1@yahoo.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:24:42 -0500 From: "Colin & Bev Rainey" To: "KRnet" Subject: KR>Engines Message-ID: <001101c3d7c8$8b44d180$f2452141@RaineyDay> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 2 Scott & netters, I hope all have enjoyed and more importantly gained from this = debate/discussion. I don't see Scott & I at odds concerning engines but = rather applying our different types of experience to our craft in the = hopes of making the safest aircraft possible. Both Scott & I have = fallen prey to attempting to discuss a very complicated subject in = limited space, so as not to bore or overwhelm everyone else, but also = dominate it. I hope some of the whys' everyone has have been answered = by one or the other of us, or at least prompted those who still have = questions to research them instead of giving up on their dreams/goals. = Scott correctly points out some things in my last post, which for the = sake of space I over simplified for the discussion. As all builders, = Scott included have discovered, whenever changes are made the snowball = begins rolling and hopefully stops before the money runs out! I am glad = that Scott pointed out that a poorly designed cowling/air passage system = will destroy even a certified engine for all its claims of endurance and = tolerance, which would be the same outcome given an auto conversion. = None should take the powerplant lightly, and any changes, additions, = subtractions, or modifications should be performed with the same = deliberate testing and design analysis as one would if they were = designing a new airframe. Installing an auto conversion that is a = Winston-Cup short track engine in an attempt to gain additional = performance over a stock O-360 aircraft engine is destined for = catastrophe. But a properly designed 4cyl, or V6 engine, rebuilt and = inspected with quality parts and attention to detail, in the same manner = as the A&P would for the aviation engine has the same opportunity for = success, provided the builder invests the appropriate amount of time and = testing to prove his installation as sound and correct. I hope that all = infer the correct information from this discussion, that installation of = either type of engine is not to be taken lightly. The information for = successful aviation engine installation is readily available due to its = popularity. However, the burden of proving an auto engine installation = is on the builder. This where the testing period of the initial flyoff = is so important that a builder truly test the aircraft, not just go = buzzing around for 40 hours. Scott pointed out the 8 plug heads of say the Nissan have a single = point of failure, true: fix: order a crank trigger ignition setup that = allows use of an independent ignition trigger, coil, and distributor and = you have a second ignition system. If I wanted to replace the slick = Mag, this is what I would do. I have electronic ignition on the other = side of the head. Adapting a slick mag would allow a self supporting = back up to the primary ignition, which I am in favor of. This is just = one example of what you the builder are responsible for developing, that = you are paying for in the certified engine. I just personally feel they = are way over priced, and choose the alternative instead. You the = builder will have to choose for yourself based upon your abilities, = factory/information support, and budget. Keep building and fly safe.... See ya at the Gathering! Colin & Bev Rainey KR2(td) N96TA Sanford, FL crainey1@cfl.rr.com or crbrn96ta@hotmail.com http://kr-builder.org/Colin/index.htmlFrom dean_cooper@bellsouth.net Sat Jan 10 14:41:50 2004 Received: from imf19aec.mail.bellsouth.net ([205.152.59.67]) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1AfRnh-000Pwj-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:41:49 -0800 Received: from office ([66.157.215.47]) by imf19aec.mail.bellsouth.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with SMTP id <20040110223127.RPDA1950.imf19aec.mail.bellsouth.net@office> for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:31:27 -0500 Message-ID: <032b01c3d7c9$654b7c30$0502a8c0@office> From: "Dean Cooper" To: "KRnet" Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:30:48 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1b3 Subject: KR>Conversion to AS5046 airfoil X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list Reply-To: KRnet List-Id: KRnet List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: Netters, Well, I decided to convert to the new AS5046 airfoil. Thanks to some = insight from Les Criscillo on exactly how to go about it, I have = successfully cut out my aft spar. It took me about 2 hours to cut it = out and clean up the joints. I just got back from Kinko's, where they = printed up the airfoil templates for $11.37 with tax. Now it's on to = cutting out the new ribs and re-securing the aft spar to the fuselage. = I have taken pictures through the process and will post once it is = complete. Happy building.... =20 Dean Cooper Jacksonville, FL Email me at dean_cooper@bellsouth.net See my KR project at www.geocities.com/djramccoop1/KR2_Home.htmlFrom larry.capps@comcast.net Sat Jan 10 14:42:39 2004 Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net ([204.127.202.56]) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1AfRoV-00001l-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:42:39 -0800 Received: from schpankme (c-67-165-151-111.client.comcast.net[67.165.151.111]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with SMTP id <20040110223217012006h9ike>; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 22:32:17 +0000 From: "Larry A Capps" To: "'KRnet'" Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 16:32:46 -0600 Message-ID: <000701c3d7c9$abd112f0$0700a8c0@schpankme> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Subject: KR>Fun Friday KR static system el cheapo X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list Reply-To: larry.capps@comcast.net, KRnet List-Id: KRnet List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: I like the idea of this static port "type" system. Unfortunately, Aluminum and Wood expand and contract at very different rates, how would one properly mount the static port system mentioned, utilizing an aluminum rivets through wood? Larry A Capps Naperville, IL "Far Out" - J Denver -----Original Message----- The entire static system, which includes 5' of 1/8 clear, 20' of 1/4" OD polypropolene, 2 .25x.125x.125 Tees, 1 elbow, 5 plastic tube inserts and one tube Tee can be had for a whoppin $18.50. The thickness of the KR fuselage would be a very good candidate for the use of this rivet. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:41:03 -0500 From: "Dean Cooper" To: "KRnet" Subject: KR>Calendars Message-ID: <033401c3d7ca$d400be50$0502a8c0@office> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 3 Netters, While I was at CopyMAX earlier this week, I saw a brochure about = personalized calendars (the spiral bound type) and inquired. They = advised me to bring 13 digital pictures (12 months + cover) and they = would make them up for the following cost: Qty Unit Cost 1 $24.99 2-11 $19.99 12-50 $15.99 51+ $12.99 If we got 51 or more, it would be about $14 a calendar. I thought = people were willing to pay $20, which would be $6 a calander going = towards the gathering fund. =20 Steve, are you still interested in to doing this if we get enough = interest? =20 KRnet, is there still interest? If not, I'll drop it... =20 Dean Cooper Jacksonville, FL Email me at dean_cooper@bellsouth.net See my KR project at www.geocities.com/djramccoop1/KR2_Home.htmlFrom lmcgee@maqs.net Sat Jan 10 14:57:05 2004 Received: from diamond.maqs.net ([66.187.32.14]) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1AfS2T-0000Jy-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:57:05 -0800 Received: from lori8v5h2xi9m3 (oxfo-pvc-133-39.dsl.maqs.net [66.187.41.37]) by diamond.maqs.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 48BA4DB07D for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 16:46:43 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <001101c3d7cb$a51f7120$0202a8c0@lori8v5h2xi9m3> From: "Steve and Lori McGee" To: "KRnet" References: <033401c3d7ca$d400be50$0502a8c0@office> Subject: Re: KR>Calendars Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 16:46:54 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list Reply-To: KRnet List-Id: KRnet List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: I placed an order today for 3 at Staples. I felt I couldn't put it off longer as it is already in the new year. I requested it to go from feb thru jan for next year. We will see. Steve McGee Endeavor Wi. USA Building a KR2S widened. lmcgee@maqs.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dean Cooper" To: "KRnet" Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2004 4:41 PM Subject: KR>Calendars > Netters, > > While I was at CopyMAX earlier this week, I saw a brochure about personalized calendars (the spiral bound type) and inquired. They advised me to bring 13 digital pictures (12 months + cover) and they would make them up for the following cost: > > Qty Unit Cost > 1 $24.99 > 2-11 $19.99 > 12-50 $15.99 > 51+ $12.99 > > If we got 51 or more, it would be about $14 a calendar. I thought > people were willing to pay $20, which would be $6 a calander going towards the gathering fund. > > Steve, are you still interested in to doing this if we get enough interest? > > KRnet, is there still interest? If not, I'll drop it... > > Dean Cooper > Jacksonville, FL > Email me at dean_cooper@bellsouth.net > See my KR project at www.geocities.com/djramccoop1/KR2_Home.html_________________________________ ______________ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:57:26 -0800 (PST) From: Scott Cable To: KRnet Subject: Re: KR>Engines:Very Well Stated & Amen! Message-ID: <20040110225726.80479.qmail@web40802.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <001101c3d7c8$8b44d180$f2452141@RaineyDay> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 4 Wow Colin, I couldn't have stated any better, in fact it's like you took the words right out of my (feeble) mind! Thank-you. It was my intent of this whole thread, not to try to get someone to give up their dreams, but rather edify the group about the inherent risks of flight, accepting the risks involved, when choosing any flight intended hardware, hopefully with a clearer or better understanding of the possible consequenses of their choices. The bottom line here is create a mission statement for your airplane. Research everything that goes into that mission statement. Build your airplane to satisfy the requirements of your aircraft mission statement. Refer OFTEN back to your mission statement when building / modifying your airplane. When you think, geez, I'd really like to put this wiz-bang auto-pilot and weather avoidance radar system on my KR, the answer will become obvious to you that it's not needed to fulfil your Daytime VFR Requirement that you put in your mission statement. FYI: As a reminder, the KR was originally designed to use a auto-conversion engine..... Keep buildin' --- Colin & Bev Rainey wrote: > Scott & netters, > I hope all have enjoyed and more importantly gained > from this debate/discussion. I don't see Scott & I > at odds concerning engines but rather applying our > different types of experience to our craft in the > hopes of making the safest aircraft possible. Both > Scott & I have fallen prey to attempting to discuss > a very complicated subject in limited space, so as > not to bore or overwhelm everyone else, but also > dominate it. I hope some of the whys' everyone has > have been answered by one or the other of us, or at > least prompted those who still have questions to > research them instead of giving up on their > dreams/goals. ===== Scott Cable KR-2S # 735 Wright City, MO s2cable1@yahoo.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:12:04 -0600 From: "Steve and Lori McGee" To: Subject: KR>Construction time Message-ID: <000e01c3d7cf$291ffc30$0202a8c0@lori8v5h2xi9m3> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 5 I just reached my 100 hour mark. In that time I have made: wafs = (done), outer spars (close to done), Diehl style glass legs (almost = done), foam/glassed seat base and backs (done except for hole cutout = for stick, haven't made up my mind to go center or dual), back support = and seatbelt anchor structure, and some body work on already built = elevator. =20 For those that haven't followed my build, I purchased a started = project with boat section of fuse built, main spars in, and elevator = rough built. I have also just gone over the $4000 mark invested in the = project. Many supplies are now in house including core and a few parts = purchased. Not bad I think for 2 months. Steve McGee Endeavor Wi. USA Building a KR2S widened. lmcgee@maqs.net=20 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:45:14 -0500 From: VIRGIL N SALISBURY To: krnet@mylist.net Cc: krnet@mylist.net Subject: Re: KR>New KR2S eBay Listing Message-ID: <20040110.182342.2732.0.virgnvs@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 6 The center spars will NOT handle the stress, Virg On Fri, 9 Jan 2004 10:19:59 -0700 (Mountain Standard Time) "gleone" writes: > I'm curious, I lifted this directly from the Rand Robinson web > page: > > The KR-1 is the single seat low wing retractable monoplane which is > typically powered by smaller VW engines, up to the VW 2100. The KR-1B > motorglider is a standard KR-1 with modified outer wing sections. > With this > simple wing conversion, the original KR-1 becomes an excellent > self-powered > glider. > > Why won't the KR-2 work that way? > > Gene Leone > Worland, Wyoming > > > "This is a great day for France!" --President Richard Nixon while > attending > Charles De Gaulle's funeral. Truer words were never spoken! > > -------Original Message------- > > From: KRnet > Date: Friday, January 09, 2004 9:51:48 AM > To: krnet@mylist.net > Cc: krnet@mylist.net > Subject: Re: KR>New KR2S eBay Listing > > Just do NOT try to make it a MOTOR GLIDER. The center spars will > not handle the > load, Virg > > On Fri, 9 Jan 2004 12:47:40 +0000 writes: > > Just found that my blood pressure medicine may cost me my medical. > So > > does anyone know of a way to reconfigure the wings to make the > kr2 > > into the sport pilot classifaction? > > My old spell checker only sends me looking for a dictionary. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > > > > > > > Virgil N. Salisbury - AMSOIL > www.lubedealer.com/salisbury > Miami ,Fl > > _______________________________________________ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > > . > > _______________________________________________ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > > Virgil N. Salisbury - AMSOIL www.lubedealer.com/salisbury Miami ,Fl ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:54:20 -0500 From: VIRGIL N SALISBURY To: krnet@mylist.net Cc: krnet@mylist.net Subject: Re: NOT KR>Medical Blood Pressure Meds. Message-ID: <20040110.182342.2732.1.virgnvs@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 7 Fly the KR-1b, Virg On Fri, 9 Jan 2004 18:52:04 EST Boeing757mech1@aol.com writes: > To the author; > > >Just found that my blood pressure medicine may cost me my medical. > > > Change Blood pressure meds! There are lots of meds not that are > approved by > the FAA. What are you taking? > > Chris Theroux > Gilbert, AZ. > _______________________________________________ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > > Virgil N. Salisbury - AMSOIL www.lubedealer.com/salisbury Miami ,Fl ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:53:52 -0800 (PST) From: Ray Fuenzalida To: KRnet Subject: Re: KR>Calendars Message-ID: <20040110235352.58962.qmail@web42002.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <001101c3d7cb$a51f7120$0202a8c0@lori8v5h2xi9m3> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 8 I'll get a KR calendar. Ray in New Orleans --- Steve and Lori McGee wrote: > I placed an order today for 3 at Staples. I felt I > couldn't put it off > longer as it is already in the new year. I > requested it to go from feb thru > jan for next year. We will see. > > Steve McGee > Endeavor Wi. USA > Building a KR2S widened. > lmcgee@maqs.net > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dean Cooper" > To: "KRnet" > Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2004 4:41 PM > Subject: KR>Calendars > > > > Netters, > > > > While I was at CopyMAX earlier this week, I saw a > brochure about > personalized calendars (the spiral bound type) and > inquired. They advised > me to bring 13 digital pictures (12 months + cover) > and they would make them > up for the following cost: > > > > Qty Unit Cost > > 1 $24.99 > > 2-11 $19.99 > > 12-50 $15.99 > > 51+ $12.99 > > > > If we got 51 or more, it would be about $14 a > calendar. I thought people > were willing to pay $20, which would be $6 a > calander going towards the > gathering fund. > > > > Steve, are you still interested in to doing this > if we get enough > interest? > > > > KRnet, is there still interest? If not, I'll drop > it... > > > > Dean Cooper > > Jacksonville, FL > > Email me at dean_cooper@bellsouth.net > > See my KR project at > www.geocities.com/djramccoop1/KR2_Home.html_________________________________ > ______________ > > see KRnet list details at > http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 16:14:15 -0800 From: Alex To: KRnet Subject: Re: KR>Calendars Message-ID: <40009557.3090904@swavely.net> In-Reply-To: <20040110235352.58962.qmail@web42002.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040110235352.58962.qmail@web42002.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 9 FYI, CafePress offers custom calendars at $14.99 per, wholesale, and prints them on a on-demand basis (means you can sell one or a dozen and you aren't stuck with a bunch of inventory that didn't sell). Free setup. http://www.cafepress.com/cp/info/storeref.aspx?refby=swavely >From: "Dean Cooper" > >Netters, >While I was at CopyMAX earlier this week, I saw a >brochure about personalized calendars (the spiral >bound type) and inquired. They advised me to bring >13 digital pictures (12 months + cover) and they >would make them up for the following cost: > >Qty Unit Cost >1 $24.99 >2-11 $19.99 >12-50 $15.99 >51+ $12.99 > >If we got 51 or more, it would be about $14 a >calendar. I thought people were willing to pay $20, >which would be $6 a calander going towards the >gathering fund. > >Steve, are you still interested in to doing this >if we get enough interest? > >KRnet, is there still interest? If not, I'll drop >it... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 20:17:24 -0500 From: "JOHN WENZ" To: "krnet" Subject: Re: KR>Edo-Aire question for the net Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 10 In the past I did some avionics installs and used a avionics supplier in = Florida. ( Eastern or Southern Avionics I think. They advertise in trade = a plane.) In most cases I did not buy all or even many of the radios from= them, This does not mean they won't help you. I have bought some pre-wi= red harnesses from them with the one end unwired. The cost was much less = than I could do it for, and did not cost much more than the parts cost. T= hey build harnesses every day, and seem to fly through them. I asked them= to send the pin-out diagram for the install and they were most helpful. = You could ask them how much it would cost to build a pigtail harness, or = if they would just supply the pin-out. As far as the A&P... well I won't = go there ----- Original Message ----- From: gleone Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 3:43 PM To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: KR>Edo-Aire question for the net I just acquired an Edo-Aire 563 (used but supposed to work). The problem= is there is no wiring diagram for installing it. Does anyone have an Edo-Ai= re 563 or other Edo-Aire all in one Nav/Com's I can get a copy of the installation wiring diagram from? I hate to have to go to an A&P to get = it done as they tend to charge an arm and leg. Thanks in advance, Gene Leone Worland, Wyoming =20 "This is a great day for France!" --President Richard Nixon while attendi= ng Charles De Gaulle's funeral. Truer words were never spoken! =20 _______________________________________________ see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 20:29:46 -0500 From: Carlos Romero To: KRnet Subject: Re: KR>Engines Message-ID: <4000A70A.6090900@alltel.net> In-Reply-To: <20040110213611.17670.qmail@web40809.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040110213611.17670.qmail@web40809.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 11 Scott: Not trying to be argumentative but it also must be pointed out that most certified aircraft engines are also not approved for aerobatics they do not have the fuel or oil systems for it. It also must be pointed out that most aircraft type certificated or experimental are also not approved for aerobatic use. So aerobatics alone need not be a disqualifying point for any engine. Also, any engine or almost any engine can be equipped with redundant ignition systems. So, if I don't need aerobatics and have dual independent ignition I am probably as safe in my corvair as you are in your lycosaur. In fact I think there are some lycoming engines that have a crankshaft failure rate that is higher than the corvairs. I do agree that the "sudden failure" behavior of some electronics seems to make them undesireable, but we are now using fadec (full authority digital control) systems on many aircraft it is time the experimental / homebuilt aircraft community begin to emulate these for pennies on the dollar and design redundance in them just like have done on countless automotive engine conversions of the past. Maybe if the legal environment in the USA were more conducive to innovation the aircraft engine manufacturers would not be offering scarcely improved 1947 technology at outrageous prices forcing us to look elsewhere. my .02 Carlos ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 22:00:55 -0500 From: To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: KR>Engines Message-ID: <20040111030055.FMNS17405.fed1mtao07.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 12 Netters: This has been the best discussion I've read since joining the KR Net. Now I would like to add my 2 cents. I don't think I am as knowledgeable in the realm of engines as some, but I do have one advantage: I'm flying a KR with a modern auto converstion. After 7,000 hours and professional flying I can say, I have never flown an airplane that is as much fun as my KR-2s with Subaru EJ-22. Aside from the fun factor, I would like to add 2 points: 1) my airplane has a trouble light on the instrument panel that identifies the malfuncion. 2) My PSRU has TWO belts. And, I would like to add...pilot error, (usually involving fuel starvation or mismanagement), is the major cause of aircraft accidents. Ron Vogt ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 22:36:34 -0500 From: VIRGIL N SALISBURY To: krnet@mylist.net Cc: krnet@mylist.net Subject: Re: KR>KR-2S & 150 hp Franklin : These 7 things Message-ID: <20040110.223634.1000.0.virgnvs@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 13 DO Not load up a KR with a Franklin engine, Virg Specific queeries direct please. On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 06:45:35 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) "Dan Heath" writes: > Virg, > > Can you enlighten me as to what your response to this post, means? > I read > your post, .00005 nano seconds and the original post, 30 seconds, > and I > cannot figure out what your response means. > > See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics > > Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC > > DanRH@KR-Builder.org > > See you in Mt. Vernon - 2004 - KR Gathering > > See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org > > -------Original Message------- > > From: KRnet > Date: Friday, January 09, 2004 8:54:48 AM > To: krnet@mylist.net > Cc: krnet@mylist.net > Subject: Re: KR>KR-2S & 150 hp Franklin : These 7 things > > NO, Too much, Virg > > On Thu, 8 Jan 2004 10:46:59 -0800 (PST) Scott Cable > > writes: > > KRNetters > > OK, hear me out on this one for one second: > > First remembering that the KR is one of the easiest > > aircraft to modify, and there has never been a KR > > crashed due to a structural failure. > > > > The KR has a double 5/8ths spruce Upper Longerons, a > > single 5/8 ths lower longeron. 3/32nd plywood outer > > skin, and 1/4 inch plywood firewall support structure. > > What if: > > 1.) Added an additional 5/8 piece to the upper > > Longerons > > > > 2.) Double the lower longerons aft to behind the rear > > spar and add 2 ea 5/8th intercostals from the > > firewall to the front spar. > > > > 3.) Instead of a 3/32 plywood floor between the > > firewall (under the rudder pedal support) and the > > front spar, use 1/4 inch 45 degree bias plywood. > > > > 4.) Add a 3/32 plywood inner skin from the firewall to > > the instrument panel, and 1/4 inch lower firewall > > gusset (like the existing upper gussett in the 2S > > plans) and a 1/4 inch plywood doubler on the > > inner forward and rear faces of the front spar. > > > > 5.) Add 18 inches to each wing to increase the wing > > span by 3 ft (from 23 to 26) (additional wing area > > to handle the increased engine weight) > > > > 6.) Increase the rudder / vertical stab area by 25% > > > > 7.) Increase the landing gear strut thickness by 20% > > > > By doing these 7 things, the KR-2S should be able to > > handle the additional loads imposed by a heavier, > > more powerful engine. > > Essentially, I've created a torque box on the belly, > > and fuselage sides. This should come close to > > doubling the load carrying ability of the fwd > > structure. > > The added structural weight would be less than 30 > > pounds. For a total increase in gross weight of 67 > > pounds (over a corvair or Subaru). > > I think a weight gain of 67 pounds, with the benefit > > of 30 more useable horsepower, and a gob more torque > > is reasonable. Another benefit is it's a aircraft > > engine. > > > > > > > > ===== > > Scott Cable > > KR-2S # 735 > > Wright City, MO > > s2cable1@yahoo.com > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes > > http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus > > > > _______________________________________________ > > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > > > > > > > Virgil N. Salisbury - AMSOIL > www.lubedealer.com/salisbury > Miami ,Fl > > _______________________________________________ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > ._______________________________________________ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > > Virgil N. Salisbury - AMSOIL www.lubedealer.com/salisbury Miami ,Fl ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 14:42:37 +1000 From: "Barry Kruyssen" To: "KR Net List" Subject: KR>test message only - changing email addresses Message-ID: <006b01c3d7fd$58833f40$bf00a8c0@t1w419> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 14 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 23:26:23 +1100 From: "Martindale Family" To: "KRnet" Subject: KR>Larry Severson Message-ID: <00a401c3d83e$219216a0$75a0fea9@johnjane> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 15 Hi Larry Been trying to respond but your provider rejects me. Please supply = alternative email address. Thanks The Martindale Family 29 Jane Circuit TOORMINA NSW 2452 AUSTRALIA phone: 61 2 66584767 email: johnjane@chc.net.auFrom flesner@midwest.net Sun Jan 11 05:25:20 2004 Received: from capitol.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.180]) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1Affai-0009H6-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 05:25:20 -0800 Received: from dsc02-cir-oh-204-32-78-244.rasserver.net ([204.32.78.244] helo=larry-flesner) by capitol.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AffQg-0006Ap-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 05:14:59 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20040111070727.008105a0@pop.midwest.net> X-Sender: flesner@pop.midwest.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 07:07:27 -0600 To: KRnet From: larry flesner In-Reply-To: <000701c3d7c9$abd112f0$0700a8c0@schpankme> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: KR>KR static system el cheapo X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list Reply-To: KRnet List-Id: KRnet List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: >I like the idea of this static port "type" system. Unfortunately, Aluminum >and Wood expand and contract at very different rates, how would one properly >mount the static port system mentioned, utilizing an aluminum rivets through >wood? >Larry A Capps ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I suspect the total amount of expansion and contraction on a part that small would not be a problem. From Dana's description it sounds like you "pull" the rivet but I wonder if you couldn't just epoxy the rivet in the wood skin with a small amount of epoxy on the exterior, under the head, and leave the shank intact. The hose connection on the inside would also tend to hold it in place if the rivet doesn't push out when installing the hose. Larry Flesner Carterville, Illinois ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 08:16:27 -0500 From: "Dana Overall" To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: RE: KR>Fun Friday KR static system el cheapo Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 16 >From: "Larry A Capps" >I like the idea of this static port "type" system. Unfortunately, Aluminum >and Wood expand and contract at very different rates, how would one >properly >mount the static port system mentioned, utilizing an aluminum rivets >through >wood? I believe in a previous post, it was mentioned the head was actually steel but.............if that concerns anyone, it wouldn't me, cut a piece of thin alum. into a square of say, .5" as a backing plate. Scuff up the side facing the wood fuselage, drill and deburr an 1/8" hole to accept the shank of the rivet, stick some flox on it and squeeze the rivet. I know for a fact, a couple builders have already ordered the static kit for $18. If anyone needs a piece of alclad alum thin enough so as not to impede upon the available length necessary for slipping the static line over the shank, let me know your address off list and I'll snail mail out two cut, drilled and deburred pieces (man, what a long sentence:-). Specifically Dan, as you are so close, let me know your address. I'll run down and cut yours up as soon as I get off the internet. Dana Overall 1999 & 2000 National KR Gathering host Richmond, KY RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" Finish kit Buying Instruments. Hangar flying my Dynon. http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive _________________________________________________________________ Let the new MSN Premium Internet Software make the most of your high-speed experience. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/prem&ST=1 ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ See KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html End of KRnet Digest, Vol 277, Issue 1 *************************************