From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net on behalf of krnet-request@mylist.net Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 10:22 AM To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: KRnet Digest, Vol 287, Issue 1 Send KRnet mailing list submissions to krnet@mylist.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mylist.net/listinfo/krnet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to krnet-request@mylist.net You can reach the person managing the list at krnet-owner@mylist.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of KRnet digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Need advise - Fuel pump installation (Dan Heath) 2. Re: Need advise - Fuel pump installation (Dan Heath) 3. Ailerons (Colin & Bev Rainey) 4. Re: Rand Wingskins Cost (Scott Cable) 5. Re: Ailerons (Scott Cable) 6. Re: Need advise - Fuel pump installation 7. Re: Re: Bolt Size (Ralph H Snyder) 8. Re: Re: Bolt Size (Kenneth L Wiltrout) 9. Re: Need advise - Fuel pump installation (Brian G. Douglas) 10. Re: Need advise - Fuel pump installation (Dan Heath) 11. Re: Need advise - Fuel pump installation (Dana Overall) 12. Fuel pump, flow restriction (Ron Freiberger) 13. Check valve and fuel pumps (Ron Freiberger) 14. RE: Fuel pump, flow restriction (Serge F. Vidal) 15. Fuel pump installation (larry flesner) 16. Re: Ailerons (larry flesner) 17. Fuel pumps/ wing tanks(long) (larry flesner) 18. Re: Need advise - Fuel pump installation (Ron Eason) 19. Re: Need advise - Fuel pump installation (Ron Eason) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 17:32:37 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "Dan Heath" To: "krnet@mylist.net" Subject: KR>Need advise - Fuel pump installation Message-ID: <400DAC85.000005.03764@Computer> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 1 I have just received our 2 Facet fuel pumps. I am planning on installing them in-line. My question is: What is the best way to know if one, just = one of the fuel pumps is not operating. Install switches on both. Indicato= r lights. Something else? =0D =0D See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics=0D =0D Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC=0D =0D DanRH@KR-Builder.org=0D =0D See you in Mt. Vernon - 2004 - KR Gathering=0D =0D See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org=0D =20From larry2@socal.rr.com Tue Jan 20 15:28:00 2004 Received: from ms-smtp-02-qfe0.socal.rr.com ([66.75.162.134] helo=ms-smtp-02-eri0.socal.rr.com) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1)id 1Aj5Hs-0003mU-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Tue, 20 Jan 2004 15:28:00 -0800 Received: from SteveCanyon.socal.rr.com (cpe-66-75-117-49.socal.rr.com [66.75.117.49]) by ms-smtp-02-eri0.socal.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with ESMTP id i0KNI5NS018046 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 2004 15:18:05 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20040120151335.0293ac10@pop-server.socal.rr.com> X-Sender: larry2@pop-server.socal.rr.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 15:18:03 -0800 To: KRnet From: larry severson Subject: Re: KR>Need advise - Fuel pump installation In-Reply-To: <400DAC85.000005.03764@Computer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list Reply-To: KRnet List-Id: KRnet List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: I will have the same setup. Each pump with a separate switch, plus a low pressure light after the last one. 1st pump will be primary. If low pressure light stays on, I will turn on the backup pump. Of course, optimum would be a fuel pressure gage, but it might not be as attention getting as a light. At 05:32 PM 1/20/2004 -0500, you wrote: >I have just received our 2 Facet fuel pumps. I am planning on >installing them in-line. My question is: What is the best way to know >if one, just one > of the fuel pumps is not operating. Install switches on both. Indicator >lights. Something else? Larry Severson Fountain Valley, CA 92708 (714) 968-9852 larry2@socal.rr.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 18:24:33 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "Dan Heath" To: "krnet@mylist.net" Subject: Re: KR>Need advise - Fuel pump installation Message-ID: <400DB8B1.000001.03420@Computer> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20040120151335.0293ac10@pop-server.socal.rr.com> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 2 Larry,=0D =0D Tell me more about the low pressure light. What is it, where to get it, = how much pressure, how is it hooked up?=0D =0D Thanks, =0D =0D See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics=0D =0D Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC=0D =0D DanRH@KR-Builder.org=0D =0D See you in Mt. Vernon - 2004 - KR Gathering=0D =0D See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org=0D =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: KRnet=0D Date: Tuesday, January 20, 2004 6:18:22 PM=0D To: KRnet=0D Subject: Re: KR>Need advise - Fuel pump installation=0D =0D I will have the same setup. Each pump with a separate switch, plus a low=0D pressure light after the last one.=0D 1st pump will be primary. If low pressure light stays on, I will turn on=0D the backup pump.=0D Of course, optimum would be a fuel pressure gage, but it might not be as=0D attention getting as a light.=0D =0D At 05:32 PM 1/20/2004 -0500, you wrote:=0D >I have just received our 2 Facet fuel pumps. I am planning on >installing= =0D >them in-line. My question is: What is the best way to know if one, just >= one=0D > of the fuel pumps is not operating. Install switches on both. > Indicator= =0D >lights. Something else?=0D =0D Larry Severson=0D Fountain Valley, CA 92708=0D (714) 968-9852=0D larry2@socal.rr.com=0D =0D =0D _______________________________________=0D to UNSUBSCRIBE from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net=0D please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html=0D =2EFrom matheson@dodo.com.au Tue Jan 20 15:39:21 2004 Received: from relay01.kbs.net.au ([203.220.32.149]) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1Aj5Sr-00041X-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Tue, 20 Jan 2004 15:39:21 -0800 Received: from [203.220.150.190] (helo=Office) by relay01.kbs.net.au with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #2) id 1Aj5JV-0005uk-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Wed, 21 Jan 2004 10:29:42 +1100 Message-ID: <002f01c3dfad$41074e80$be96dccb@Office> From: "Phil Matheson" To: "KRnet" References: <20040119145449.10249.qmail@web40812.mail.yahoo.com> <000c01c3dea2$77df7fb0$93c34944@ROBBINS1> Subject: Re: KR>Rand Wingskins Cost Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 10:29:00 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list Reply-To: KRnet List-Id: KRnet List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: I have Diehl Skins, they came with the KR and good to work with. But Epoxy would have been nice. Cost What is the cost of the two types of skins, these days ????????? Phil Matheson matheson@dodo.com.au VH-PKR ( reserved) 61 3 58833588 See our VW Engines and Home built web page at http://www.vw-engines.com/ www.homebuilt-aviation.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 18:36:30 -0500 From: "Colin & Bev Rainey" To: "KRnet" Subject: KR>Ailerons Message-ID: <004601c3dfae$3b09fe00$f2452141@RaineyDay> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 3 Someone correct me if I am wrong but my impression was that we have = differential ailerons, so their up travel will be different from their = down travel, just so long as both sides are the same. This is used to = counter adverse yaw. Colin & Bev Rainey KR2(td) N96TA Sanford, FL crainey1@cfl.rr.com or crbrn96ta@hotmail.com http://kr-builder.org/Colin/index.htmlFrom s2cable1@yahoo.com Tue Jan 20 15:50:59 2004 Received: from web40811.mail.yahoo.com ([66.218.78.188]) by lizard.esosoft.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1Aj5e7-0004Gr-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Tue, 20 Jan 2004 15:50:59 -0800 Message-ID: <20040120234105.8148.qmail@web40811.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [130.76.64.17] by web40811.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 20 Jan 2004 15:41:05 PST Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 15:41:05 -0800 (PST) From: Scott Cable Subject: Re: KR>Need advise - Fuel pump installation To: KRnet In-Reply-To: <400DAC85.000005.03764@Computer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list Reply-To: KRnet List-Id: KRnet List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: Dan, Installing them in-line is probably not a good idea. Electric fuel pumps push, not pull. Install them as close to the the tanks as possible. I found this out the hard way...I put dual Carter electric fuel pumps (in-line)in my drag-race car, it overpowered the carb float... and flooded the engine...on the starting line....NOT Pretty. Why did I put the second one in the first place? I had the first one mounted in the engine compartment, the engine would stave for fuel halfway down the strip.... because electric pumps push fuel, not pull....Duh! How did I fix it? Removed the front fuel pump and ran the second installed pump solo near the tank. Wha-la...no more fuel starving, or flooding. Try doing that in the pits, not a fun day at the races...But I did learn something!!!!! Gravity feed fuel (all of it)to the pump inlet. Get ALL of the fuel to drain out of the tank and into the fuel pump inlet. Otherwise you're just carrying extra weight and unusable fuel. Placement of the pump is critical (Yes, I'm being.....redundant....). For redundant fuel pumps to be exactly that, then entirely separate systems are usually in order. Follow this same type of thinking throughout the installation. Suction and pressure sides. Power for the pumps should be on separate electrical busses (essential buss and auxiliary buss). Each should have it's own on/off switch, fuse or circuit breaker, and fuel inlet/outlet. Although I'm not at all crazy about routing fuel through the cockpit, fuel gauges for both pumps should suffice. albeit requires additional pilot workload to monitor the systems guages. You could research the pressure settings for a low oil pressure light sending unit, select one that is suitable for your installation (carb), plumb and wire that into the system for low fuel pressure. Most float carbs for automotive use need a maximum of 6 lbs of fuel pressure, finding an oil pressure sending unit that indicates at something like 1.5 psi will be a real challenge. Netters: A little help???? Ron Eason sells a nice fuel management panel, the schematic is at: http://www.jrl-engineering.com/images/knotvue/fuelmgmtcircbd.gif A picture of the board is: http://www.jrl-engineering.com/images/knotvue/fueltkmgr.jpg If you want to order one: http://www.jrl-engineering.com/kv-ftorder.html is a form to fill out. I'm not pushing these for Ron, I just think it's an elegant solution for a fairly complex issue. I like ideas that reduce your pilot workload...This happens to be one of them. --- Dan Heath wrote: > I have just received our 2 Facet fuel pumps. I am > planning on installing > them in-line. My question is: What is the best way > to know if one, just one > of the fuel pumps is not operating. Install > switches on both. Indicator > lights. Something else? ===== Scott Cable KR-2S # 735 Wright City, MO s2cable1@yahoo.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 15:46:34 -0800 (PST) From: Scott Cable To: KRnet Subject: Re: KR>Rand Wingskins Cost Message-ID: <20040120234634.18443.qmail@web40801.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <002f01c3dfad$41074e80$be96dccb@Office> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 4 Rand Robinson advertises the wing skins on their website: $4200 US for the kit which is 14 pieces: upper and lower stubs, upper and lower outers, upper and lower ailerons, wing tips. http://www.fly-kr.com --- Phil Matheson wrote: > I have Diehl Skins, they came with the KR and good > to work with. > But Epoxy would have been nice. > > Cost > What is the cost of the two types of skins, these > days ????????? ===== Scott Cable KR-2S # 735 Wright City, MO s2cable1@yahoo.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 15:48:07 -0800 (PST) From: Scott Cable To: KRnet Subject: Re: KR>Ailerons Message-ID: <20040120234807.64632.qmail@web40808.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <004601c3dfae$3b09fe00$f2452141@RaineyDay> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 5 Colin you are correct --- Colin & Bev Rainey wrote: > Someone correct me if I am wrong but my impression > was that we have differential ailerons, so their up > travel will be different from their down travel, > just so long as both sides are the same. This is > used to counter adverse yaw. > > Colin & Bev Rainey > KR2(td) N96TA > Sanford, FL > crainey1@cfl.rr.com > or crbrn96ta@hotmail.com > http://kr-builder.org/Colin/index.html_______________________________________ > to UNSUBSCRIBE from KRnet, send a message to > KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html ===== Scott Cable KR-2S # 735 Wright City, MO s2cable1@yahoo.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 18:52:06 EST From: JEHayward@aol.com To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: Re: KR>Need advise - Fuel pump installation Message-ID: <12d.395a979d.2d3f1926@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 6 In a message dated 1/20/2004 3:33:40 PM Mountain Standard Time, DanRH@AllTel.net writes: > My question is: What is the best way to know if one, just one > of the fuel pumps is not operating. Install switches on both. First of all, you can hear the difference when they are both on or just one is on. Secondly, and some disagree, you don't want both pumps running all the time anyway so put in a switch for each one. If they both ran all the time, how would you know if one failed? Jim H. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 16:52:55 -0500 From: Ralph H Snyder To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: Re: KR>Re: Bolt Size Message-ID: <20040120.165257.-3761261.0.ralphndori@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 7 The bolt size is 1 1/8 x 5" NC. Drill and tap the threaded end of the bolt for 1/2" NC and install a bolt in it. Cut the 1/2" bolt off 2 1/4" long and taper the end the same angle as a drill bit. This will pop it off with no problem. Ralph Snyder Burbank, CA On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 13:30:20 -0500 Kenneth L Wiltrout writes: > > I'm pulling down the 2100 Revmaster to reseal it. Any body know the > bolt > size that acts as the prop hub puller. > Thanks Guys. > > Looking forward to Sun'n Fun 2004!!!!!!!!! > > ________________________________________________________________ > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > > _______________________________________ > to UNSUBSCRIBE from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at > http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 20:14:18 -0500 From: Kenneth L Wiltrout To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: Re: KR>Re: Bolt Size Message-ID: <20040120.201419.4036.4.klw1953@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 8 Thanks Ralph, I didn't hear from anybody but you , so to keep this project moving I ordered the bolt from Revmaster for $22.00 (30 min ago before I saw your response), along with my gaskets and seals. --------------------Getting ready the summer of 2004. On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 16:52:55 -0500 Ralph H Snyder writes: > The bolt size is 1 1/8 x 5" NC. Drill and tap the threaded end of > the > bolt for 1/2" NC and install a bolt in it. Cut the 1/2" bolt off 2 > 1/4" > long and taper the end the same angle as a drill bit. This will pop > it > off with no problem. > Ralph Snyder > Burbank, CA > > On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 13:30:20 -0500 Kenneth L Wiltrout > > writes: > > > > I'm pulling down the 2100 Revmaster to reseal it. Any body know > the > > bolt > > size that acts as the prop hub puller. > > Thanks Guys. > > > > Looking forward to Sun'n Fun 2004!!!!!!!!! > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > > > > _______________________________________ > > to UNSUBSCRIBE from KRnet, send a message to > KRnet-leave@mylist.net > > please see other KRnet info at > > http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > > > > > > _______________________________________ > to UNSUBSCRIBE from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at > http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > > ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 20:19:16 -0600 From: "Brian G. Douglas" To: "KRnet" Subject: Re: KR>Need advise - Fuel pump installation Message-ID: <002d01c3dfc4$fc9b8320$d4d31840@youryk5cbmeeo8> References: <20040120234105.8148.qmail@web40811.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: first-class Message: 9 Gezz Guys are we making this hard or what? Mine has one pump (facet) with a left and right switch that pumps out of the wings, to the header tank. It just dumps it into the header. I do not have a low preasure or low level light but you can feel when the pump is pumping air. On mine the pump is under the pax seat. Now I do not know where the origional owner got the valve to switch tanks but...You could put switches and light all day but all you do is create a larger problem Now to refreash, one pump is all you need. These things (pumps) are fairly reliable and you should be able to see if all is working well. Brian G. Douglas Killeen Texas N8575C KR2 (TD) NOW at the airport after a restoration. I WILL BE AT Mount Vernon!! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Cable" To: "KRnet" Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2004 5:41 PM Subject: Re: KR>Need advise - Fuel pump installation > Dan, > Installing them in-line is probably not a good idea. > Electric fuel pumps push, not pull. Install them as > close to the the tanks as possible. > I found this out the hard way...I put dual Carter > electric fuel pumps (in-line)in my drag-race car, it > overpowered the carb float... and flooded the > engine...on the starting line....NOT Pretty. > Why did I put the second one in the first place? I > had the first one mounted in the engine compartment, > the engine would stave for fuel halfway down the > strip.... because electric pumps push fuel, not > pull....Duh! How did I fix it? > Removed the front fuel pump and ran the second > installed pump solo near the tank. Wha-la...no more > fuel starving, or flooding. > Try doing that in the pits, not a fun day at the > races...But I did learn something!!!!! > > Gravity feed fuel (all of it)to the pump inlet. > Get ALL of the fuel to drain out of the tank and into > the fuel pump inlet. Otherwise you're just carrying > extra weight and unusable fuel. Placement of the pump > is critical (Yes, I'm being.....redundant....). > > For redundant fuel pumps to be exactly that, then > entirely separate systems are usually in order. > Follow this same type of thinking throughout the > installation. Suction and pressure sides. > Power for the pumps should be on separate electrical > busses (essential buss and auxiliary buss). Each > should have it's own on/off switch, fuse or circuit > breaker, and fuel inlet/outlet. > Although I'm not at all crazy about routing fuel > through the cockpit, fuel gauges for both pumps should > suffice. albeit requires additional pilot workload to > monitor the systems guages. > You could research the pressure settings for a low > oil pressure light sending unit, select one that is > suitable for your installation (carb), plumb and wire > that into the system for low fuel pressure. Most > float carbs for automotive use need a maximum of 6 lbs > of fuel pressure, finding an oil pressure sending unit > that indicates at something like 1.5 psi will be a > real challenge. Netters: A little help???? > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 21:28:19 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "Dan Heath" To: "krnet@mylist.net" Subject: Re: KR>Need advise - Fuel pump installation Message-ID: <400DE3C3.000005.03432@Computer> References: <002d01c3dfc4$fc9b8320$d4d31840@youryk5cbmeeo8> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 10 Brian G. Douglas Killeen Texas N8575C KR2 (TD)=0D NOW at the airport after a restoration.=0D =0D Brian,=0D =0D You got any pics?=0D =0D =0D See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics=0D =0D Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC=0D =0D DanRH@KR-Builder.org=0D =0D See you in Mt. Vernon - 2004 - KR Gathering=0D =0D See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org=0D =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: KRnet=0D Date: Tuesday, January 20, 2004 9:19:46 PM=0D To: KRnet=0D Subject: Re: KR>Need advise - Fuel pump installation=0D =0D Gezz Guys are we making this hard or what? Mine has one pump (facet) with= a=0D left and right switch that pumps out of the wings, to the header tank. It= =0D just dumps it into the header. I do not have a low preasure or low level=0D light but you can feel when the pump is pumping air. On mine the pump is=0D under the pax seat. Now I do not know where the origional owner got the=0D valve to switch tanks but...You could put switches and light all day but = all=0D you do is create a larger problem=0D Now to refreash, one pump is all you need. These things (pumps) are=0D fairly reliable and you should be able to see if all is working well.=0D =0D Brian G. Douglas Killeen Texas N8575C KR2 (TD)=0D NOW at the airport after a restoration.=0D I WILL BE AT Mount Vernon!!=0D =0D ----- Original Message -----=0D From: "Scott Cable" =0D To: "KRnet" =0D Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2004 5:41 PM=0D Subject: Re: KR>Need advise - Fuel pump installation=0D =0D =0D > Dan,=0D > Installing them in-line is probably not a good idea.=0D > Electric fuel pumps push, not pull. Install them as=0D > close to the the tanks as possible.=0D > I found this out the hard way...I put dual Carter=0D > electric fuel pumps (in-line)in my drag-race car, it=0D > overpowered the carb float... and flooded the=0D > engine...on the starting line....NOT Pretty.=0D > Why did I put the second one in the first place? I=0D > had the first one mounted in the engine compartment,=0D > the engine would stave for fuel halfway down the=0D > strip.... because electric pumps push fuel, not=0D > pull....Duh! How did I fix it?=0D > Removed the front fuel pump and ran the second=0D > installed pump solo near the tank. Wha-la...no more=0D > fuel starving, or flooding.=0D > Try doing that in the pits, not a fun day at the=0D > races...But I did learn something!!!!!=0D >=0D > Gravity feed fuel (all of it)to the pump inlet.=0D > Get ALL of the fuel to drain out of the tank and into=0D > the fuel pump inlet. Otherwise you're just carrying=0D > extra weight and unusable fuel. Placement of the pump=0D > is critical (Yes, I'm being.....redundant....).=0D >=0D > For redundant fuel pumps to be exactly that, then=0D > entirely separate systems are usually in order.=0D > Follow this same type of thinking throughout the=0D > installation. Suction and pressure sides.=0D > Power for the pumps should be on separate electrical=0D > busses (essential buss and auxiliary buss). Each=0D > should have it's own on/off switch, fuse or circuit=0D > breaker, and fuel inlet/outlet.=0D > Although I'm not at all crazy about routing fuel=0D > through the cockpit, fuel gauges for both pumps should=0D > suffice. albeit requires additional pilot workload to=0D > monitor the systems guages.=0D > You could research the pressure settings for a low=0D > oil pressure light sending unit, select one that is=0D > suitable for your installation (carb), plumb and wire=0D > that into the system for low fuel pressure. Most=0D > float carbs for automotive use need a maximum of 6 lbs=0D > of fuel pressure, finding an oil pressure sending unit=0D > that indicates at something like 1.5 psi will be a=0D > real challenge. Netters: A little help????=0D >=0D >=0D =0D =0D _______________________________________=0D to UNSUBSCRIBE from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net=0D please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html=0D =2EFrom serge.vidal@ate-international.com Wed Jan 21 00:46:24 2004 Received: from rissala173.outgw.tn ([193.95.17.173]) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1AjE0G-000AM2-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Wed, 21 Jan 2004 00:46:24 -0800 Received: from tounes-22.ati.tn (tounes-22.ati.tn [193.95.66.22]) by rissala164.ingw.tn (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i0LAaqOu023704 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 2004 09:36:52 -0100 (GMT) Received: from smtp2.planet.net.tn (smtp.planet.tn [193.95.123.26]) by tounes-22.ati.tn (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0L7aCck001709 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 2004 09:36:12 +0200 (EET) Received: from sergevidal ([213.150.173.238]) by smtp2.planet.net.tn (Switch-3.1.3/Switch-3.1.0) with SMTP id i0LASJJ7019617 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 2004 09:28:20 -0100 (GMT) From: "Serge F. Vidal" To: "'KRnet'" Subject: RE: KR>Need advise - Fuel pump installation Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 09:34:41 +0100 Message-ID: <000701c3dff9$6a36c190$2c0101c0@ate.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-reply-to: <002d01c3dfc4$fc9b8320$d4d31840@youryk5cbmeeo8> Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list Reply-To: serge.vidal@ate-international.com, KRnet List-Id: KRnet List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: When I decided to change the engine on ZS-WEC, I realized once the new engine (VW 2.4 liter) got delivered that it did not have a fuel pump port. So, I bought a Facet fuel pump, and I was hoping to gravity feed from the header tank, through the Facet, to the carb. Well, the Facet seems to bring quite a flow restriction. Moreover, that restriction is not consistent. It depends on where the pump mechanism sits when you switch off. So, my 2.4 liter won't work at full RPM without the pump on. I have a warning light (light on-"pump on"), but the Facet being mounted inside the cockpit, I know I won't need a warning to know it has stopped! Serge Vidal KR2 ZS-WEC Tunis, Tunisia ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 07:01:22 -0500 From: "Dana Overall" To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: Re: KR>Need advise - Fuel pump installation Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 11 Dan, just as a point of reference only. My one and only fuel pump is located on the single line between the fuel selector valve and the engine. I do like the idea of two though, if the fuel pump is required for proper fuel flow. Much as Scott said, while not located near a tank for "pushing" it is located at the lowest point in the system prior to it's upward bend to the engine....thus pushing. I know this did not answer your question, thus for reference only. A nice option listed in the facet install instructions is to wire a oil pressure safety switch to the fuel pump so the pump stops when the engine stops with the ignition switch on. This would not be a factor in an engine out, if the prop was windmilling as oil pressure would still be generated. The only issue I can think of would be if you lose oil pressure, but with that that big ol fan is going to stop anyway. Course I guess you could just wire to through ignition. This is one electrical device that is on my essential bus (aeroelectric.com). Dana Overall 1999 & 2000 National KR Gathering host Richmond, KY RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" Finish kit Buying Instruments. Hangar flying my Dynon. http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive _________________________________________________________________ Check out the coupons and bargains on MSN Offers! http://shopping.msn.com/softcontent/softcontent.aspx?scmId=1418 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 09:44:51 -0500 From: "Ron Freiberger" To: "KRNET" Subject: KR>Fuel pump, flow restriction Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 12 Sege Vidal said; Well, the Facet seems to bring quite a flow restriction. Moreover, that restriction is not consistent. It depends on where the pump mechanism sits when you switch off. So, my 2.4 liter won't work at full RPM without the pump on. Thanks, Serge... I've been following all the reports of people who said their aircraft ran OK with the FACET pump off. Based on my measurements for flow restriction, this couldn't be possible with the two units I have. My plan was to use a pump with the Ellison Carb, which I've sold on the way to "piecing out " the project. The answer is to bypass the pump with a low restriction check valve. Aircraft Spruce p/n 10630. I bought one, and it's a nice job. Since Serge's clue reminded me of the problem, I'll put mine on eBay so one of you can have it. ;o) BTW, you should all at least read to A/S description of the part. I think the right solution is to feed a header tank, if your carb allows gravity feed, and the have a float that runs the pumps to keep it filled and a warning light if the level drops and /or the pump runs for a long time. Ron Freiberger mailto: rfreiberger@swfla.rr.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 10:26:50 -0500 From: "Ron Freiberger" To: "KRNET" Subject: KR>Check valve and fuel pumps Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 13 On eBay at item # 2455692541. Picture and text description from A/S Ron Freiberger mailto: rfreiberger@swfla.rr.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 17:11:32 +0100 From: "Serge F. Vidal" To: "'KRnet'" Subject: RE: KR>Fuel pump, flow restriction Message-ID: <000101c3e039$3cc24c30$2c0101c0@ate.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 14 Ron Freiberger said: [...The answer is to bypass the pump with a low restriction check valve. Aircraft Spruce p/n 10630. I bought one, and it's a nice job....] I also bought a bypass valve from Aircraft Spruce.Don't know if it's the same P/N, but the one I've got takes way too much pressure to open, so I gave it up. Serge _______________________________________ to UNSUBSCRIBE from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 10:20:15 -0600 From: larry flesner To: KRnet Subject: KR>Fuel pump installation Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040121102015.00850d80@pop.midwest.net> In-Reply-To: <002d01c3dfc4$fc9b8320$d4d31840@youryk5cbmeeo8> References: <20040120234105.8148.qmail@web40811.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 15 > Now to refreash, one pump is all you need. These things (pumps) are >fairly reliable and you should be able to see if all is working well. >Brian G. Douglas Killeen Texas N8575C KR2 (TD) +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ My only caution on such a setup is for you to make sure your C.G. does not go out the back of the C.G. range if for any reason you can't pump the fuel out to the wings and you run the header tank low on fuel. This did happen to one KR driver on his way to the Gathering several years ago. I don't know if his his C.G. went out of range but he said it got a "bit squirrelly" before he landed. I got my prop back from Ed Sterba. I'm still working on the pesky left wing tank leak. #$%%^^!!!!! Larry Flesner Carterville, Illinois www.krgathering.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 10:21:22 -0600 From: larry flesner To: KRnet Subject: Re: KR>Ailerons Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040121102122.0081ec60@pop.midwest.net> In-Reply-To: <004601c3dfae$3b09fe00$f2452141@RaineyDay> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 16 >Someone correct me if I am wrong but my impression was that we have differential ailerons, so their up travel will be different from their down travel, just so long as both sides are the same. This is used to counter adverse yaw. >Colin & Bev Rainey ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Because of the differential travel you should check to insure the mid-points of travel are correct as well as the max up and down travel. If not, your KR will have different turning characteristics in a left or right turn. If the neutral position is correct and the bellcranks are aligned properly, this shouldn't be a problem. Larry Flesner Carterville, Illinois www.krgathering.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 10:21:45 -0600 From: larry flesner To: KRnet Subject: KR>Fuel pumps/ wing tanks(long) Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040121102145.00850100@pop.midwest.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 17 Much as Scott said, while not located near a tank for "pushing" >it is located at the lowest point in the system prior to it's upward bend to >the engine....thus pushing. >Dana Overall +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ While not claiming my system is the way to go I'll tell you what works for me and is now flight proven with (only) two hours of flight. I have a 12 1/2 gal tank in each outer wing panel and no header tank. I have two Facet pumps that are plumbed in parallel. I have a fuel line from each tank to a shutoff valve located on the front face of the forward spar just below my knees. Between the shutoff valves is a tee that takes a single line to the two pumps (in parallel) and from there to the firewall gascolator and on to the carb. The fuel pressure gauge is in line just past the pumps. Between that fitting and the firewall is my fuel pressure regulator. This setup allows me to use either/both pumps to pump from either/both tanks and check either/both pumps with a single pressure gauge. My standard proceedure is to fly with both tanks turned on using a single pump except for takeoff and landing. Each pump has a separate switch and indicator light for "on". Because I would go into "glide" mode soon after having to turn off my electrical system I installed a backup power source for the pumps. A small motorcycle battery on the firewall feeds a separate buss and uses separate circuit brakers and switches to the pumps. The only thing in common is the pumps and the wires leading to the instrument panel. The circuits are isolated using diodes so I don't get feedback from the main to backup buss. If I have to shut down my electrical system in flight I simply turn off the fuel pump switch of the operating pump and flip a single switch to bring a pump back on line with the backup battery. A switch next to my volt meter on the panel allows me to monitor the condition of my backup battery, "up" for aux battery, "down" for main battery. Checking the condition of the backup battery and exercising the pumps on the backup system is one of the first items on my checklist before engine startup. One of the drawbacks of this system is that it requires a high number of flare fittings and thus a greater chance for leaks. I had several concerns about such a system while designing it. 1. Would the pumps be able to prime the line and draw fuel being being located that far from the tanks. I tested the pumps using water (heavier than gas) and was able to draw at a height of 30 inches. Early taxi test in the yard using a fuel can suspended from and below the wing attach fittings indicated that was not a problem. 2. Would the pumps, in parallel, simply form a loop in the system and pump fuel in a circle through the pumps without a check valve on each pump. I plumbed the pumps "head to head" and could not pump fuel "backward" through the pump. I eliminated the check valves. 3. Would the pickup in the wings "unport" in flight causing the pumps to suck air. I concluded that if both tanks were turned "on" that one tank or the other should always have fuel at the fuel pickup during any given flight mode. The unported pickup should have fuel flowing through the line from the pickup that has fuel, it being at that moment the higher of the two. My early flights had approx 5 gal in each tank and with approx two hours of flight time I have yet to see a problem. Even if both tanks unport at the same time, and I'm not sure how I'd get that to happen, I still have the fuel in the carb to keep the engine running for a short period. In several hours of running before attaching the wings, several hours of taxi test, and approx two hours of flight time, the engine has not so much as "burped" once. As always, your results may vary. Whatever system you use you must do a fuel flow test to insure you have sufficent flow in all flight attitudes. Do these test on the ground, not in the air! There is no "one perfect setup". Just make sure you consider all the possible failure modes for whatever system you have installed. Larry Flesner Carterville, Illinois www.krgathering.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 11:10:15 -0600 From: "Ron Eason" To: "KRnet" Subject: Re: KR>Need advise - Fuel pump installation Message-ID: <000c01c3e041$70af5260$6501a8c0@Administration> References: <400DAC85.000005.03764@Computer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 18 Dan, There are lots of options and I am sure you will get advice from more than one source. I have two wing tanks and one header tank with two Facet pumps one for each wing tank. We incorporated some hard wired logic in my alternating controls of the pumps. The wiring diagram is at http://krron.freeyellow.com/ . You can eliminate the auto feature and go manual with indicating lights and modify the diagram. KRRon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 12:13:47 -0600 From: "Ron Eason" To: "KRnet" Subject: Re: KR>Need advise - Fuel pump installation Message-ID: <00e301c3e04a$502e9e20$6501a8c0@Administration> References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 19 If you want a different approach substitute a "flow switch and light to confirm flow" for a pressure gauge or switch [ pressure will not confirm the flow of fuel if that's your intent.] Omega controls is one source. KRRon ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ See KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html End of KRnet Digest, Vol 287, Issue 1 *************************************