From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net on behalf of krnet-request@mylist.net Sent: Friday, January 30, 2004 8:06 AM To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: KRnet Digest, Vol 296, Issue 1 Send KRnet mailing list submissions to krnet@mylist.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mylist.net/listinfo/krnet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to krnet-request@mylist.net You can reach the person managing the list at krnet-owner@mylist.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of KRnet digest..." Today's Topics: 1. 8's on pylons (Colin & Bev Rainey) 2. Cowling (Colin & Bev Rainey) 3. Re: Cowling (Dan Heath) 4. Re: Instrument panel labeling (Dean Cooper) 5. elevator trim (Harold Woods) 6. Cowling extention (larry flesner) 7. control system failures (larry flesner) 8. Re: control system failures (Dan Heath) 9. RE: Elevator trim (Serge F. Vidal) 10. Re: control system failures (Orma Robbins) 11. Fun Friday-lost my mind:-) (Dana Overall) 12. Re: Fun Friday-lost my mind:-) (joe) 13. Trim tabs (JIM VANCE) 14. control system failures (larry flesner) 15. Re: Fun Friday-lost my mind:-) (Dana Overall) 16. RE: control system failures (Ron Freiberger) 17. Re: Fun Friday-lost my mind:-) 18. RE: Fun Friday-lost my mind:-) (Jeff Waldron) 19. Re: Fun Friday-lost my mind:-) (Dana Overall) 20. Re: Fun Friday-lost my mind:-) (larry severson) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 16:52:16 -0500 From: "Colin & Bev Rainey" To: "KRnet" Subject: KR>8's on pylons Message-ID: <004801c3e6b2$29b7e2b0$f2452141@RaineyDay> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 1 Jack & netters, That is a great illustration for control cable failure compensation, and = I in fact teach similar "improper" mixing of the flight controls to my = advance students so that they have an answer for such situations instead = of crashing. They might not land the prettiest using this method, but = under those circumstances walking away whole is more important. I also = teach & demonstrate elevator trim only landings for the same reason. However, I know it was a different age of testing and the PTS = was very different then, but netters please do not use the demonstrated = method of flying the "8's on pylons" maneuver with only rudder and = elevator, as shown to Jack. I am glad you passed then, but in the = latest version of the PTS, it specifically mentions maintaining = coordinated flight and his method would be a guaranteed failure of the = ride. I normally would not have posted this here, but rather just = discussed it with Jack, however all would see it here, so I corrected it = here. Again, I wholeheartedly endorse such practices as a necessity of = failure, but do not recommend anyone try this while on a ride, lest he = desire to fail miserably. Pulling the transmission soon... Colin & Bev Rainey KR2(td) N96TA Sanford, FL crainey1@cfl.rr.com or crbrn96ta@hotmail.com http://kr-builder.org/Colin/index.htmlFrom postmaster@techfocal.com Thu Jan 29 14:02:05 2004 Received: from mail1.intermedia.net ([206.40.48.151]) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1AmKEf-0002y1-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 14:02:05 -0800 To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: Autoreply: KR>8's on pylons From: dan@techfocal.com Sender: dan@techfocal.com Message-Id: Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 13:52:27 -0800 X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list Reply-To: KRnet List-Id: KRnet List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: This auto reply msg notification has been sent to inform you of the following: I will be out of the office until Feb 2, 2004 due to a death in my family. I will be checking my email and voice msgs periodically while I am away. Best Regards, Dan madero Your message reads: Received: from lizard.esosoft.net (unverified [66.113.66.18]) by mail1.intermedia.net (Rockliffe SMTPRA 4.5.6) with ESMTP id for ; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 13:52:27 -0800 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lizard.esosoft.net) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1AmKEd-0002xM-0M for dan@techfocal.com; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 14:02:03 -0800 Received: from ms-smtp-02-smtplb.tampabay.rr.com ([65.32.5.132] helo=ms-smtp-02.tampabay.rr.com) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1)id 1AmKES-0002uq-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 14:01:52 -0800 Received: from RaineyDay (242.69.33.65.cfl.rr.com [65.33.69.242]) by ms-smtp-02.tampabay.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id i0TLqI9c004613 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 16:52:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <004801c3e6b2$29b7e2b0$f2452141@RaineyDay> From: "Colin & Bev Rainey" To: "KRnet" Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 16:52:16 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1b3 Subject: KR>8's on pylons X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list Reply-To: KRnet List-Id: KRnet List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: Sender: krnet-bounces+dan=techfocal.com@mylist.net Errors-To: krnet-bounces+dan=techfocal.com@mylist.net Jack & netters, That is a great illustration for control cable failure compensation, and = I in fact teach similar "improper" mixing of the flight controls to my = advance students so that they have an answer for such situations instead = of crashing. They might not land the prettiest using this method, but = under those circumstances walking away whole is more important. I also = teach & demonstrate elevator trim only landings for the same reason. However, I know it was a different age of testing and the PTS = was very different then, but netters please do not use the demonstrated = method of flying the "8's on pylons" maneuver with only rudder and = elevator, as shown to Jack. I am glad you passed then, but in the = latest version of the PTS, it specifically mentions maintaining = coordinated flight and his method would be a guaranteed failure of the = ride. I normally would not have posted this here, but rather just = discussed it with Jack, however all would see it here, so I corrected it = here. Again, I wholeheartedly endorse such practices as a necessity of = failure, but do not recommend anyone try this while on a ride, lest he = desire to fail miserably. Pulling the transmission soon... Colin & Bev Rainey KR2(td) N96TA Sanford, FL crainey1@cfl.rr.com or crbrn96ta@hotmail.com http://kr-builder.org/Colin/index.html_______________________________________ to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 16:56:13 -0500 From: "Colin & Bev Rainey" To: "KRnet" Subject: KR>Cowling Message-ID: <005101c3e6b2$b6ea9560$f2452141@RaineyDay> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 2 Netters, I am considering extending the cowling to allow the engine to be moved = forward 2-3 inches and was wondering what the simplest way would be to = extend the glass work to accommodate this with the least amount of = effort? If it is not too much trouble, I would like to improve the max = weight CG position and aircraft stability. Colin & Bev Rainey KR2(td) N96TA Sanford, FL crainey1@cfl.rr.com or crbrn96ta@hotmail.com http://kr-builder.org/Colin/index.htmlFrom postmaster@techfocal.com Thu Jan 29 14:06:11 2004 Received: from mail1.intermedia.net ([206.40.48.151]) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1AmKId-0003CT-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 14:06:11 -0800 To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: Autoreply: KR>Cowling From: dan@techfocal.com Sender: dan@techfocal.com Message-Id: Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 13:56:35 -0800 X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list Reply-To: KRnet List-Id: KRnet List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: This auto reply msg notification has been sent to inform you of the following: I will be out of the office until Feb 2, 2004 due to a death in my family. I will be checking my email and voice msgs periodically while I am away. Best Regards, Dan madero Your message reads: Received: from lizard.esosoft.net (unverified [66.113.66.18]) by mail1.intermedia.net (Rockliffe SMTPRA 4.5.6) with ESMTP id for ; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 13:56:35 -0800 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lizard.esosoft.net) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1AmKIM-0003A2-00; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 14:05:54 -0800 Received: from ms-smtp-01-smtplb.tampabay.rr.com ([65.32.5.131] helo=ms-smtp-01.tampabay.rr.com) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1)id 1AmKIJ-00039x-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 14:05:52 -0800 Received: from RaineyDay (242.69.33.65.cfl.rr.com [65.33.69.242]) by ms-smtp-01.tampabay.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id i0TLuFd2021263 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 16:56:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <005101c3e6b2$b6ea9560$f2452141@RaineyDay> From: "Colin & Bev Rainey" To: "KRnet" Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 16:56:13 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1b3 Subject: KR>Cowling X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list Reply-To: KRnet List-Id: KRnet List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: Sender: krnet-bounces@mylist.net Errors-To: krnet-bounces@mylist.net Netters, I am considering extending the cowling to allow the engine to be moved = forward 2-3 inches and was wondering what the simplest way would be to = extend the glass work to accommodate this with the least amount of = effort? If it is not too much trouble, I would like to improve the max = weight CG position and aircraft stability. Colin & Bev Rainey KR2(td) N96TA Sanford, FL crainey1@cfl.rr.com or crbrn96ta@hotmail.com http://kr-builder.org/Colin/index.html_______________________________________ to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 17:50:40 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "Dan Heath" To: "krnet@mylist.net" Subject: Re: KR>Cowling Message-ID: <40198E40.000003.00376@Computer> References: <005101c3e6b2$b6ea9560$f2452141@RaineyDay> Content-Type: Text/Plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 3 Colin,=0D =0D How are you going to accomplish moving it forward that much? =0D =0D I would try sanding off the paint and adding a fiberglass extension, or, cutting a 2 or 3 inch wide strip off the back and inserting a fiberglass extension. That way you would not have to deal with the attachments. =0D =0D See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics=0D =0D Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC=0D =0D DanRH@KR-Builder.org=0D =0D See you in Mt. Vernon - 2004 - KR Gathering=0D =0D See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org=0D =20 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 19:02:35 -0500 From: "Dean Cooper" To: "KRnet" Subject: Re: KR>Instrument panel labeling Message-ID: <00f901c3e6c4$5e199820$0502a8c0@office> References: <3.0.6.32.20040129073357.00837e90@pop.midwest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 4 Larry wrote: >The brand name "Electro-Tag comes to > mind but I'm not sure Larry, KRnet, et al: It's a "Dymo Letra Tag". I have one I use for filing etc around the house. Works great. ps. I finished my airfoil conversion by securing the aft spar back in place over the weekend. I think I have a total of about 8 hours from the first pilot hole to start cutting to clamping the spar after it had been epoxied. Small price to pay for the increased performance... Dean Cooper Jacksonville, FL Email me at dean_cooper@bellsouth.net See my KR project at www.geocities.com/djramccoop1/KR2_Home.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 20:52:57 -0500 From: "Harold Woods" To: Subject: KR>elevator trim Message-ID: <008801c3e6d3$c8adb0e0$1a997018@HAROLD> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 5 If your stick breaks off and you have elevator trim control you can set the desired flying angle with the trim tab.I am proof that it works. Harold Woods Orillia,ON Canada. haroldwoods@rogers.com --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.567 / Virus Database: 358 - Release Date: 1/24/2004 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 21:04:58 -0600 From: larry flesner To: KRnet Subject: KR>Cowling extention Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040129210458.00836af0@pop.midwest.net> In-Reply-To: <005101c3e6b2$b6ea9560$f2452141@RaineyDay> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 6 >I am considering extending the cowling to allow the engine to be moved forward 2-3 inches and was wondering what the simplest way would be to extend the glass work to accommodate this with the least amount of effort? >Colin & Bev Rainey ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I extended my 0-200 cowl, that I purchased from Dan Diehl, two inches at the rear and approx two inches at the front to accomodate a five inch prop extention. My concern was mounting the cowl on this rear two inch extention. I was afraid the extention would be weak and a crack would soon appear at the seam. The route I took, and I don't know if it is the simplest or easiest, was to use aluminum strips. The were maybe 1/16" or so, I don't recall. I cut strips that were approx 1 1/2" X 6" and flox/glassed them to the original cowl at each attach point with the alum extending beyond the cowl equal to the extention I wanted. I actually mounted my cowl using these strips before filling in the extention with foam and glass. I later glassed some 1/4" foam strips on one side that were slightly larger than the void I had. After they cured I cut back the foam on the forward edge only so it would overlap the cowl and removed the foam in the area of the alum strips so it would fit flush. I glassed these in place with another layer of glass that tied the fill foam to the original cowl. When cured I sanded the inside of the foam flush and finished with a layer of glass. The front was extended by gluing foam to the cowl and shaping to the spinner. This resulted in giving me a nice looking shark nose. I also closed down the cowl inlet holes about one inch on each side in the process. The result of these efforts is that my cowl attach points are tied to the original cowl with metal with the fill adding strength. With my cowl firmly attached I could actually bounce the KR up and down using the air inlet holes until the wheels nearly come off the ground and there is zero movement in the cowl. I had decided that if I could rip it off I didn't want to be flying behind it. That of course was when I had the 0-200 removed. If you go that route make sure you put enough 1/8" holes in the alum plates for the flox to flow through and lay on the glass before the flox sets up. That will make for a really strong bond. If this doesn't make sense I might have a picture or two I could e-mail you direct. I'd have to check my photo album. Larry Flesner Carterville, Illinois 2004 Gathering host ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 21:05:19 -0600 From: larry flesner To: KRnet Subject: KR>control system failures Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040129210519.0083b400@pop.midwest.net> In-Reply-To: <004401c3e68d$14823280$6e364944@ROBBINS1> References: <007701c3e565$046b3be0$f74d8690@GAVINANDLOUISE> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 7 I personall am not aware of any >KR control system failures. >Orma aka AviationMech +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ There was a KR crash I'm guessing about 9 or 10 years back that was blamed on the failure of the elevator control horn. The pilot's name was Ralph Smith as I recall. I met Ralph at one of the Gatherings at columbia, Tennessee. He was later killed when his KR crashed and burned. Investigation revealed that all control systems were intact but the elevator control horn was broken. It did not appear to have been broken in the crash so it was assumed to be the cause of the accident. As I recall, if the control horn is not shaped properly or if there are no control stops installed, the elevator horn can come into contact with the elevator spar and perhaps the center hinge. this could put unnecessary strain on the horn. I'm a firm believer that you should have control hard stops in the system at the controls themselves and not at the control surfaces. This keeps you from over stressing the system and the only load ever felt by the system are the air loads. These for the most part are pretty light as compared to a lead footed pilot stomping on both rudder peddles with all his weight while braking, etc. A friend of mine flying a Q-200 broke his rudder peddles completely from the mount once when he got excited on landing and was headed toward the grass. Imagine putting that much stess on the little 1/8" cables, control horn, etc. in our rudder system. Same goes for the stick assembly although you are not as likely to ever stress it that much. My stick assembly has hard stops for the elevator and ailerons. If I force my stick to the limit it's the stick assembly taking the loads and not my control system or the flight controls. Larry Flesner Carterville, Illinois 2004 Gathering host ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 22:24:25 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "Dan Heath" To: "krnet@mylist.net" Subject: Re: KR>control system failures Message-ID: <4019CE69.000005.00376@Computer> References: <3.0.6.32.20040129210519.0083b400@pop.midwest.net> Content-Type: Text/Plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 8 Larry,=0D =0D How do you put a hard stop on the rudder pedals, so that you cannot over stress the system while braking? I can see stopping the movement of the rudder on right to left, but when braking, they are not moving.=0D =0D See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics=0D =0D Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC=0D =0D DanRH@KR-Builder.org=0D =0D See you in Mt. Vernon - 2004 - KR Gathering=0D =0D See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org=0D =20 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 09:42:31 +0100 From: "Serge F. Vidal" To: "'Brian Kraut'" , "'KRnet'" Subject: RE: KR>Elevator trim Message-ID: <000001c3e70d$008fc8c0$2c0101c0@ate.com> In-Reply-To: <22982759.1075396973714.JavaMail.root@louie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 9 I got a trim failure once. The failure cause was that during an annual inspection, the inspector did not like the way my trim tab bracket looked like (it had been redrilled twice), and he had me make another one. Unfortunately, being very inexperienced, I glued the new one with the wrong glue, and it broke loose in flight. Well, all I noticed was a "funny stick" feeling, and I realized onl after landing at destination what had happened. So, I neutralized the trim tab with duct tape, took off, and flew back to base to fix it. Stick forces are, indeed, very light, and a KR is flown "hands-on" all the time. The trim brings comfort, especially considering the CG differences between configurations (one on board, two on board, full fuel, low fuel...). But the stick forces are easily overcome in any case. Serge Vidal KR2 ZS-WEC Tunis, Tunisia (Pilot) Orleans, France (Aircraft) -----Original Message---- From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-bounces@mylist.net]On Behalf Of Brian Kraut Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 18:23 To: KRnet Subject: Re: KR>Elevator trim If I built another one I would definitely put the trim on. I would also do a small aileron trim tab with the same type of simple control cable so I could fold maps, etc. when it was trimed. That was a real pain to do using my knee to keep the plane from rolling. If I used an electric trim, which I wouldn't do, I wouldn't bother doing a trim indicator. I would just see that the trim tab was around neutral during the preflight and wouldn't worry about it after that. My opinion is that you could very safely take off in a KR with the trim full up or down and you wouldn't even notice that it was out of trim until you got to altitude and tried taking your hand off the stick. I actually did my first landing with the trim full up. I tried trimming the plane and forgot that on mine pushing the trim lever forward was up trim, not down, so I thought that I just didn't have enough down trim and didn't realize that I was trimming in the wrong direction. Again, the stick forces are so light and I couldn't take my hand off the stick to keep it from rolling that I really barely noticed that I had to keep the stick pushed forward a little. I couldn't try flying with elevator trim only since I always need to hold some right aileron and it was impossible to push the stick to the right and let the elevator go where it wanted at the same time. If I did loose elevator control I am fairly confident that I could land with elevator trim and aileron control only, but I would definitely go to a grass strip where I wouldn't have as much of the KR ram the stick forward as soon as the mains touch to keep from bouncing tendancy. -----Original Message----- From: Dan Heath Sent: Jan 29, 2004 5:49 AM To: "krnet@mylist.net" Subject: Re: KR>Elevator trim RE: I rarely even bothered to trim it. I always had my hand on the stick Brian, You make a good point. Other than for a "piece of mind" backup to elevator control, why do KR builders spend so much time and money on elevator trim that they most likely will never use. I rarely used mine for the same reason, you always have your hand on the stick. I would really like an aileron trim to offset the tendency to roll to the right or left, as mine did the same thing. See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC DanRH@KR-Builder.org See you in Mt. Vernon - 2004 - KR Gathering See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org _______________________________________ to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html _______________________________________ to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 06:44:30 -0500 From: "Orma Robbins" To: "KRnet" Subject: Re: KR>control system failures Message-ID: <000c01c3e726$6d3c7cc0$6e364944@ROBBINS1> References: <007701c3e565$046b3be0$f74d8690@GAVINANDLOUISE> <3.0.6.32.20040129210519.0083b400@pop.midwest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 10 Excellent Post LarryOrma L. Robbins Orma@aviation-mechanics.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 07:16:34 -0500 From: "Dana Overall" To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: KR>Fun Friday-lost my mind:-) Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 11 OK, you didn't ask for it...........well some did offline with my cheapest/easiest statement yesterday. Here is the the state of the project http://rvflying.tripod.com/aero1.jpg Here is what I got via truck line yesterday http://rvflying.tripod.com/aero2.jpg It is a rotary 13B which will produce 180HP+...........I bought it for $650 delivered. To rebuild the engine I'll have to buy an aero rebuild kit, not auto rebuild, for right at $900. Gear reduction will run $2440 which will allow me to run a metal prop for IFR. Computer engine moniter for aero use, $875, dual aero designed fuel pumps $95 each and about $500 of extra parts. As you can see, cheapest/easiest is coming into play:-) For engine/redrive see the following: http://www.rotaryaviation.com http://rotaryresources.com Next the issue of engine mount/gear mount to fit my 0-360 cowling..........hum, I sure don't want to have to tackle this.........let's try: http://www.conversionconcepts.com/rv-6-7.htm Since I already have a new Dynafocal 1 engine mount and match drilled gear legs, I posted a message yesterday, .......I sold them last night so as to offset the purchase of a new mount. I'll order two new undrilled gear legs for $170 each and have them match drilled to the gear attach points on the new engine mount. No toe in adjustment as you just put a bolt in and the issue is moot. Back to the issue of water-cooled and reduction drive. The more I looked at the rotary the more bullet proof it appeared. I know that term is used way too much but here is my take. The rotary will run at operating RPMs without water for somewhere around 1/2 hour before the apex seals around the rotary start to come apart. After they come apart, you certainly lose compression and a resulting loss of RPMs. However, it still continues to run as no metal is rubbing on metal. You won't be able to restart it but it will continue to produce minimized horsepower. These things don't mechanically break or blow up. With so few moving parts and no jugs to pull or valves to lap, maintenance is at a minimum. The redrive unit from Tracy is a proven unit. It is a final product and will turn a wood or metal prop. Sen. makes a prop for this drive especially for the RV. The engines will efficiently and reliably produce 180HP+. Someone slap me..............I must be asleep at the wheel making such a decison:-) OH, KR related.............you can get a rotary to fit:-) Dana Overall 1999 & 2000 National KR Gathering host Richmond, KY RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" Finish kit Buying Instruments. Hangar flying my Dynon. http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive _________________________________________________________________ Check out the new MSN 9 Dial-up — fast & reliable Internet access with prime features! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=dialup/home&ST=1 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 04:56:55 -0800 From: "joe" To: "KRnet" Subject: Re: KR>Fun Friday-lost my mind:-) Message-ID: <000f01c3e730$ae898380$0a0110ac@o7p4e3> References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 12 Pardon my question, but what additional load carrying capabity and what additional cruise speed and climb rate can u expect from this " and I must say impressive" 180 HP Engine. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dana Overall" To: Sent: Friday, January 30, 2004 4:16 AM Subject: KR>Fun Friday-lost my mind:-) > OK, you didn't ask for it...........well some did offline with my > cheapest/easiest statement yesterday. > > Here is the the state of the project > http://rvflying.tripod.com/aero1.jpg > > Here is what I got via truck line yesterday > http://rvflying.tripod.com/aero2.jpg > > It is a rotary 13B which will produce 180HP+...........I bought it for $650 > delivered. To rebuild the engine I'll have to buy an aero rebuild > kit, not > auto rebuild, for right at $900. Gear reduction will run $2440 which > will allow me to run a metal prop for IFR. Computer engine moniter > for aero use, > $875, dual aero designed fuel pumps $95 each and about $500 of extra parts. > As you can see, cheapest/easiest is coming into play:-) > > For engine/redrive see the following: > > http://www.rotaryaviation.com > http://rotaryresources.com > > Next the issue of engine mount/gear mount to fit my 0-360 > cowling..........hum, I sure don't want to have to tackle this.........let's > try: > > http://www.conversionconcepts.com/rv-6-7.htm > > Since I already have a new Dynafocal 1 engine mount and match drilled > gear legs, I posted a message yesterday, .......I sold them last night > so as to offset the purchase of a new mount. I'll order two new > undrilled gear legs > for $170 each and have them match drilled to the gear attach points on > the new engine mount. No toe in adjustment as you just put a bolt in > and the issue is moot. > > Back to the issue of water-cooled and reduction drive. The more I > looked at > the rotary the more bullet proof it appeared. I know that term is > used way > too much but here is my take. The rotary will run at operating RPMs without > water for somewhere around 1/2 hour before the apex seals around the rotary > start to come apart. After they come apart, you certainly lose compression > and a resulting loss of RPMs. However, it still continues to run as > no metal is rubbing on metal. You won't be able to restart it but it > will continue to produce minimized horsepower. These things don't > mechanically break or blow up. With so few moving parts and no jugs > to pull or valves to > lap, maintenance is at a minimum. The redrive unit from Tracy is a > proven unit. It is a final product and will turn a wood or metal > prop. Sen. makes > a prop for this drive especially for the RV. The engines will > efficiently and reliably produce 180HP+. > > Someone slap me..............I must be asleep at the wheel making such > a > decison:-) > > OH, KR related.............you can get a rotary to fit:-) > > > > Dana Overall > 1999 & 2000 National KR Gathering host > Richmond, KY > RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" > Finish kit > Buying Instruments. Hangar flying my Dynon. http://rvflying.tripod.com > do not archive > > _________________________________________________________________ > Check out the new MSN 9 Dial-up - fast & reliable Internet access with prime > features! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=dialup/home&ST=1 > > > _______________________________________ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 07:23:13 -0600 From: "JIM VANCE" To: "krnet" Subject: KR>Trim tabs Message-ID: <005301c3e734$762110e0$0600a8c0@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 13 Both the Learjet 25 and the AC-47 I flew in Viet Nam had free floating = ailerons. The control wheel was connected by cables to aileron trim = tabs. The controls were very effective. But that is the reason that = the Lear was limited to 0.80 Mach--aileron buzz was quite spectacular = above the Mach limit. Of course, the aileron trim tabs on my AC-47 were about the size of the = elevators on a KR. With the near-neutral stability of a KR, the effectiveness of the trim = tab is small on a properly functioning elevator. But, it is the = difference between continuously correcting the aircraft attitude and = getting a few seconds to do other things in the cockpit. Jim Vance = Vance@ClaflinWildcats.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 07:31:19 -0600 From: larry flesner To: KRnet Subject: KR>control system failures Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040130073119.0083ce50@pop.midwest.net> In-Reply-To: <4019CE69.000005.00376@Computer> References: <3.0.6.32.20040129210519.0083b400@pop.midwest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 14 >Larry, >How do you put a hard stop on the rudder pedals, so that you cannot >over stress the system while braking? I can see stopping the movement >of the rudder on right to left, but when braking, they are not moving. >Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++= You're right, Dan. My rudder hard stop is only effective if I have one or the other peddle to the limit when applying a brake such as when turning on the ramp or doing a 180 on the runway. I have a steerable full swivel tailwheel so that is a common maneuver, especially when giving a 4 year old boy a ride on the ramp. A 720 degree turn with one wheel locked and immediately repeating the maneuver in the other direction makes him think he's at Six Flags. The only way I see to eliminate excessive rudder system forces when braking would be to use those MISERABLE heel brakes. Hard stops on the rudder peddles will prevent stressing the cables and rudder horn with ground maneuvering which is probably the only time the rudder goes to the limit. With aircraft weight on the tail that is also the time you could be putting the greatest forces on the system. With 4 flights and several hours of taxi testing I've not incountered a situation where I needed any braking action other then slight braking on rollout, turns beyond 30 degrees, and engine run-up. Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 08:44:01 -0500 From: "Dana Overall" To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: Re: KR>Fun Friday-lost my mind:-) Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 15 >From: "joe" >Pardon my question, but what additional load carrying capabity and what >additional cruise speed and climb rate can u expect from this " and I >must say impressive" 180 HP Engine. I'm not gaining any load/climb nor cruise although the top end may increase a couple miles an hour to around 204 due to the smoothness of the engine. There is a history of that gain. The only thing I am doing is substituting this 180HP for the 180 HP produced by an 0-360. Since I am not using a vac system, mags or jugs, what I am gaining is less maintenance. If you drop a valve in an 0-360 you and wallet are in big trouble. If something happens to this inflight..........run it even if it trashes the engine, I can buy a new totally rebuilt short block, built for aero use, for $3500 or just find another one and rebuild it using all the other accessories. I don't forsee that happening but my gains appear to far outweight anything negative. Dana Overall 1999 & 2000 National KR Gathering host Richmond, KY RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" Finish kit 13B Rotary. Hangar flying my Dynon. http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE online virus check for your PC here, from McAfee. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 08:56:10 -0500 From: "Ron Freiberger" To: "KRnet" Subject: RE: KR>control system failures Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040130073119.0083ce50@pop.midwest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 16 I don't think the size KR Flyers I've seen would be able to overstress 1/8 inch cables. That's about1600 pounds. I think we need another area to "worry" to pieces. Stops at both the input and output are advisable. In a tailslide, the rudder can be flipped by aerodynamic forces. Rudder pedals can almost surely damage KR rudder horns and hinges. There's no reason to not have adequate control stops at both ends. Ron Freiberger mailto: rfreiberger@swfla.rr.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 9:28:41 -0500 From: To: KRnet Subject: Re: KR>Fun Friday-lost my mind:-) Message-ID: <20040130142841.FMXA13731.lakemtao01.cox.net@smtp.east.cox.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 17 > > > > OH, KR related.............you can get a rotary to fit:-) That's fine, but wouldn't it be a little nose heavy? According to rotaryaviation's FAQ page the firewall forward weight of the engine is 345 lbs. Any comment? Wolfgang ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 09:31:24 -0500 From: Jeff Waldron To: 'KRnet' Subject: RE: KR>Fun Friday-lost my mind:-) Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 18 You build a single rotor, rather than dual rotor and give it a turbo you should still be able to get 120 out of it. >That's fine, but wouldn't it be a little nose heavy? According to >rotaryaviation's FAQ page the firewall forward weight of the engine is >345 lbs. Any comment? >Wolfgang ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 10:41:30 -0500 From: "Dana Overall" To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: Re: KR>Fun Friday-lost my mind:-) Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 19 Go with the 12:-), I didn't mean to imply the 13B would fit a KR. Course there isn't much engineering going on with the 12 so you'd pretty much be on your own. Dana Overall 1999 & 2000 National KR Gathering host Richmond, KY RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" Finish kit Buying Instruments. Hangar flying my Dynon. http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive >From: >Reply-To: KRnet >To: KRnet >Subject: Re: KR>Fun Friday-lost my mind:-) >Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 9:28:41 -0500 > > > > > > > > > OH, KR related.............you can get a rotary to fit:-) > >That's fine, but wouldn't it be a little nose heavy? According to >rotaryaviation's FAQ page the firewall forward weight of the engine is 345 >lbs. Any comment? > >Wolfgang > > > > > >_______________________________________ >to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net >please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html _________________________________________________________________ High-speed users—be more efficient online with the new MSN Premium Internet Software. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/prem&ST=1 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 07:56:26 -0800 From: larry severson To: KRnet Subject: Re: KR>Fun Friday-lost my mind:-) Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20040130075451.00b94760@pop-server.socal.rr.com> In-Reply-To: <20040130142841.FMXA13731.lakemtao01.cox.net@smtp.east.cox. net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 20 You read a different post than I did. The figure was 245# dry. However, It did not spell out exactly what dry meant. > OH, KR related.............you can get a rotary to fit:-) >That's fine, but wouldn't it be a little nose heavy? According to >rotaryaviation's FAQ page the firewall forward weight of the engine is 345 >lbs. Any comment? Larry Severson Fountain Valley, CA 92708 (714) 968-9852 larry2@socal.rr.com ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ See KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html End of KRnet Digest, Vol 296, Issue 1 *************************************