From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net To: John Bouyea Subject: KRnet Digest, Vol 347, Issue 145 Date: 4/12/2005 6:09:10 PM Send KRnet mailing list submissions to krnet@mylist.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mylist.net/listinfo/krnet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to krnet-request@mylist.net You can reach the person managing the list at krnet-owner@mylist.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of KRnet digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Checklists (Colin & Bev Rainey) 2. Corvair (Colin & Bev Rainey) 3. Re: KR for sale (F Ross) 4. VW 20 degree (Colin & Bev Rainey) 5. Re: Checklists (Orma) 6. RE: VW VR6 engine (Golden, Kevin) 7. RE: VW 20 degree (Golden, Kevin) 8. Fuel injection in planes (Colin & Bev Rainey) 9. R?f. : RE: KR> VW 20 degree (Serge VIDAL) 10. RE: VW VR6 engine (Brian Kraut) 11. Re: KR for sale (Jim Sellars) 12. toe-in (Andy Hatting) 13. Re: toe-in (Brant Hollensbe) 14. RE: Fuel injection in planes( LONG so BEWARE) (Doug Rupert) 15. FLY SAFE VS RISK MANAGEMENT (Colin & Bev Rainey) 16. Mechanical (Colin & Bev Rainey) 17. Re: Fuel injection in planes( LONG so BEWARE) (Mark Langford) 18. Re: Checklists (JAMES C FERRIS) 19. Re: Fuel injection in planes./ EFI VW (Phillip Matheson) 20. Re: FLY SAFE VS RISK MANAGEMENT (Ron Eason) 21. RE: Fuel injection in planes( LONG so BEWARE) (Doug Rupert) 22. RE: Mechanical (Doug Rupert) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 03:29:48 -0400 From: "Colin & Bev Rainey" Subject: Re: KR> Checklists To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <003a01c53f31$68baff00$c7432141@RaineyDay> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hey Jim Carpooling would be cool, if you want to go on Sunday. We are also going to the KR dinner Friday night. I have to work Wed & Thur nights, but am off the weekend. Ted is coming up on Sat to pick up the engine, so Sunday looks best for going to Lakeland. Are you planning on going to the dinner also? Brian has all the details of that. Colin & Beverly Rainey Apex Lending, Inc. 407-323-6960 (p) 407-557-3260 (f) www.eloan2004cr.com crainey@apexlending.com ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 03:43:52 -0400 From: "Colin & Bev Rainey" Subject: KR> Corvair To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <005301c53f33$5f860db0$c7432141@RaineyDay> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Corvair weight minus prop on the front starter setup and basic carb setup is 240# per WW. Different props would have to be added to the and the CG center of the engine is slightly further forward, but the WW mount relocates the engine closer to the firewall, so this is a moot point. Carb/intake choice, battery, alternator, fuel pumps if used, and ignition parts will effect this. 240# is with the WW intake to a Stromberg carb, dynamo alt, and WW dual ignition (detailed on ML's website). I believe that is using the stock exhaust logs also, but you would need to check with him to be sure. We are using the WW motor mount, welded head intakes, stock exhaust logs, standard prop hub WW, front starter, stock oil system, gravity feed fuel delivery, and wooden prop. I am also using full-sized alternator, full sized battery, so I expect mine to come in closer to 250-260# installed. Colin & Beverly Rainey Apex Lending, Inc. 407-323-6960 (p) 407-557-3260 (f) www.eloan2004cr.com crainey@apexlending.com ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 00:45:23 -0700 (PDT) From: F Ross Subject: Re: KR> KR for sale To: KRnet Message-ID: <20050412074523.61143.qmail@web32009.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Netters; > Les Palmer, innovator and KR experimenter, > recently had a stroke and is no longer able to fly > his KR-2S. Therefore, he has asked me to list it > for sale on the KR Net. His KR is powered by a > Subaru EJ-22, (150 hp), with reduction unit. For > more specifics, call Les at (972) 241-4387. > > RV RV, Please give my regards to Les. I visited with him one morning in May, 2001, after we had a little KR get-together in Canton called "KRs Over Texas" sponsored by Larry Howells. Since Les had just installed his EJ-22 and was unable to bring it, he invited me over to his hanger. You can see some of the photos I took at: http://photos.yahoo.com/alamokr2 click on the "Aviation" album, the first 8 are Les' plane. The original paint on Les' plane was done by Dennis Pointer, who also built one of the most beautiful KRs ever flown. Dennis, unfortunately, spent about 10 months recovering from a bad accident which destroyed his plane ("wind-shear" - went inverted on landing and took out the VASI) and, last I heard, was not planning on doing the re-paint on Les' plane after Les had to re-do the cowl for the new engine. Les has a LOT of great innovations on his plane and I had fun visiting with him and looking over his plane. He never seemed too concerned about the weight of his KR and, though it is a two-place with a center stick, he planned to fly it sitting in the center, straddling the stick, left foot on the left-side left rudder pedal, right foot on the right-side right rudder pedal. Not a practice I'm willing to try (too easy to get confused in a difficult situation) but possible due to the small size of a KR. I'm sorry to hear he is having these health problems and I hope he's back up and running before long. Frank Frank Ross, EAA Chapter 35, San Geronimo, TX RAF Lakenheath, Suffolk, England, UK Visit my photo album at: http://photos.yahoo.com/alamokr2 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 05:43:57 -0400 From: "Colin & Bev Rainey" Subject: KR> VW 20 degree To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <008401c53f44$275057f0$c7432141@RaineyDay> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Larry That engine was originally designed to be a 20 degree V6 so that manufacturing costs could be significantly reduced by only having to make one head for a V6. The idea originated from the Volvo 5 cylinder which is cut from a block of cast aluminum. It also simplifies the intake system due to the centrally mounted plenum and injection rails which was nearly impossible to get right when using earlier carb systems. That engine costs no more to produce than a double overhead cam 4 cyl, but with 6 cyl output. They may have changed it to 15 degrees to dampen more of the vibrations associated with either a 4 cyl up and down or V engine rotating mass that is not matched balanced like a V8 (issues that they have with 90 degree V6 but don't in 60 degree V6). Cool design though I don't know how practical for plane due to the need for computer to make it most effective... Colin & Beverly Rainey Apex Lending, Inc. 407-323-6960 (p) 407-557-3260 (f) www.eloan2004cr.com crainey@apexlending.com ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 06:51:53 -0400 From: "Orma" Subject: Re: KR> Checklists To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <02a101c53f4d$a4427e60$0202a8c0@ROBBINS1> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Can I please have a copy of your checklists Orma ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 07:15:54 -0400 From: "Golden, Kevin" Subject: RE: KR> VW VR6 engine To: 'KRnet' Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain This engine has a great reputation. I think they have built them for over 10 years. I don't remember if they are all aluminum or not. My sister bought one new about 8 years ago. She likes everything but the gas mileage. She did go from a Miata to a full size car though. Kevin. -----Original Message----- From: larry flesner [mailto:flesner@midwest.net] Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 10:55 PM To: KRnet Subject: KR> VW VR6 engine My daughter purchased a 2001 VW Jetta today and the engine is something I had not seen before. It is (so the salesman said) a 6 cylinder with the cylinders offset only 15 degrees and all under a common head. It was made to fit the same space as the four cylinder. My first thought on seeing it was "hey, why aren't there any of these in an airplane"? My second thought was " what the hell does my daughter need with a car with 160 mph on the speedometer" !!!!!!!!! Larry Flesner _______________________________________ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html *The information contained in this message may be confidential and/or subject to legal privilege, and is for the use of the intended addressee only. Any unauthorized use, dissemination or copying of the information in this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this message.* ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 07:18:39 -0400 From: "Golden, Kevin" Subject: RE: KR> VW 20 degree To: 'KRnet' Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain How long will it be before we accept computer driven fuel injection in airplanes? I have driven computer fuel injected cars for several years now and have only had trouble with the ignition part on a Ford car. Otherwise they have been flawless. Kevin. -----Original Message----- From: Colin & Bev Rainey [mailto:crainey1@cfl.rr.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 4:44 AM To: KRnet Subject: KR> VW 20 degree Larry That engine was originally designed to be a 20 degree V6 so that manufacturing costs could be significantly reduced by only having to make one head for a V6. The idea originated from the Volvo 5 cylinder which is cut from a block of cast aluminum. It also simplifies the intake system due to the centrally mounted plenum and injection rails which was nearly impossible to get right when using earlier carb systems. That engine costs no more to produce than a double overhead cam 4 cyl, but with 6 cyl output. They may have changed it to 15 degrees to dampen more of the vibrations associated with either a 4 cyl up and down or V engine rotating mass that is not matched balanced like a V8 (issues that they have with 90 degree V6 but don't in 60 degree V6). Cool design though I don't know how practical for plane due to the need for computer to make it most effective... Colin & Beverly Rainey Apex Lending, Inc. 407-323-6960 (p) 407-557-3260 (f) www.eloan2004cr.com crainey@apexlending.com _______________________________________ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html *The information contained in this message may be confidential and/or subject to legal privilege, and is for the use of the intended addressee only. Any unauthorized use, dissemination or copying of the information in this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this message.* ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 07:51:14 -0400 From: "Colin & Bev Rainey" Subject: KR> Fuel injection in planes To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <00f001c53f55$ee470910$c7432141@RaineyDay> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Not to start a new thread on a topic that has been much discussed and bunches of information can be found by a search in the archives, but to summarize for the new builders, at the risk of over simplifying: Fuel injection is the cats meow for a combustion engine. It solves all kinds of problems with intake design, fuel atomization, balanced mixture delivery, light weight engines, and so on... The problems with using these systems on an airplane come in 2 basic parts: 1) is the complexity of installing it by a person who is not thoroughly familiar with its design, so that he understands how critical the small details are in the installation, like how using just a different temp thermostat in the engine (water cooled setup) changes the way the computer controls things. Or the absence of a transmission, and catalytic converter/muffler assemblies changes cylinder dilution, and also has a negative effect on EGR operation due to reduced flow (ALL modern fuel injected engines use some form of Exhaust Gas Recirculation to reduce NOX emissions, and control detonation). 2) the difficulty of developing a light weight but strong PSRU, light weight cooling systems that are adequate, and having light weight but redundant systems to protect against failure are a huge challenge for the average builder. There are successful systems which I applaud, but most are expensive, and without the whole engine package being designed to maximize the injection system, are much more expensive than they are worth for just a smooth running engine. It is not an acceptance issue. Most builders acknowledge that it is better. It is the facts of an economical and safe alternative to systems that function without even electricity. I TOTALLY love modern electronic engines. But the thought of what would have happened the other day when leaving Massey Ranch Airpark and its 4000 foot long strip, which put me over the trees at 100 feet and no where to land, if I had lost my engine due to the one in a million electronic glitch, or the high pressure fuel pump failed causing total power loss, it is not if I would have crashed but where and how bad. It is not if it is good or not, but how it fails. Most builders don't understand how it works well enough to adapt it with the proper amount of support systems to make the takeoff failure not happen. If you have to take your car to a mechanic to do more than change the oil, because you don't know how to work on it, there is your answer for whether or not you should put such a system in your plane. No offense meant to anyone. I just know that I have worked on fuel injected cars for over 15 years, and WHEN I do install such a system into my plane, it will NOT just be a bolt-on setup. It is a major undertaking and should be treated as such. The KISS method works for most pilots because it is easy to install and get right, easy to maintain, and easy to troubleshoot when they have the inevitable problems that come with all things mechanical. For more discussion search the archives. There have been many threads on the topic, to include and extended one between Scott Cable and myself contrasting auto vs. aviation engines. FLY SAFE! Colin & Beverly Rainey Apex Lending, Inc. 407-323-6960 (p) 407-557-3260 (f) www.eloan2004cr.com crainey@apexlending.com ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 13:54:30 +0200 From: Serge VIDAL Subject: R?f. : RE: KR> VW 20 degree To: KRnet Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Oh, we accept it anytime! Only the certified spam cans have a problem with them, and possibly us, KR2 cheapskates (for an obvious reason, though!) ;-) Serge Vidal KR2 "Kilimanjaro Cloud" Paris, France "Golden, Kevin" Envoyé par : krnet-bounces+serge.vidal=sagem.com@mylist.net 2005-04-12 13:18 Veuillez répondre à KRnet Remis le : 2005-04-12 13:19 Pour : "'KRnet'" cc : (ccc : Serge VIDAL/DNSA/SAGEM) Objet : RE: KR> VW 20 degree How long will it be before we accept computer driven fuel injection in airplanes? I have driven computer fuel injected cars for several years now and have only had trouble with the ignition part on a Ford car. Otherwise they have been flawless. Kevin. -----Original Message----- From: Colin & Bev Rainey [mailto:crainey1@cfl.rr.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 4:44 AM To: KRnet Subject: KR> VW 20 degree Larry That engine was originally designed to be a 20 degree V6 so that manufacturing costs could be significantly reduced by only having to make one head for a V6. The idea originated from the Volvo 5 cylinder which is cut from a block of cast aluminum. It also simplifies the intake system due to the centrally mounted plenum and injection rails which was nearly impossible to get right when using earlier carb systems. That engine costs no more to produce than a double overhead cam 4 cyl, but with 6 cyl output. They may have changed it to 15 degrees to dampen more of the vibrations associated with either a 4 cyl up and down or V engine rotating mass that is not matched balanced like a V8 (issues that they have with 90 degree V6 but don't in 60 degree V6). Cool design though I don't know how practical for plane due to the need for computer to make it most effective... Colin & Beverly Rainey Apex Lending, Inc. 407-323-6960 (p) 407-557-3260 (f) www.eloan2004cr.com crainey@apexlending.com _______________________________________ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html *The information contained in this message may be confidential and/or subject to legal privilege, and is for the use of the intended addressee only. Any unauthorized use, dissemination or copying of the information in this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this message.* _______________________________________ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 08:21:30 -0400 From: "Brian Kraut" Subject: RE: KR> VW VR6 engine To: "KRnet" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" But on to important things Larry, are you coming to Sun and Fun? Brian Kraut Engineering Alternatives, Inc. www.engalt.com -----Original Message----- From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-bounces@mylist.net]On Behalf Of larry flesner Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 11:55 PM To: KRnet Subject: KR> VW VR6 engine My daughter purchased a 2001 VW Jetta today and the engine is something I had not seen before. It is (so the salesman said) a 6 cylinder with the cylinders offset only 15 degrees and all under a common head. It was made to fit the same space as the four cylinder. My first thought on seeing it was "hey, why aren't there any of these in an airplane"? My second thought was " what the hell does my daughter need with a car with 160 mph on the speedometer" !!!!!!!!! Larry Flesner _______________________________________ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 09:28:38 -0300 From: "Jim Sellars" Subject: Re: KR> KR for sale To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <001901c53f5b$27a5d380$6501a8c0@main> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Friends: I have spoken to Les numerous times over the phone, and hearing the news called him this morning with our best wishes for his early recovery. He tells me that he has been lucky and only is minimally effected by the stroke, on his left side. He will sell the airplane and it may need a bit of work but sits a very pretty bird, he would let go for 15K. He wanted me to tell everyone that he expects to make another 70 years though so not to worry. Best regards Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Langford" To: "KRnet" Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 4:16 PM Subject: Re: KR> KR for sale > RV wrote: > >> Les Palmer, innovator and KR experimenter, recently had a stroke >> and is no longer able to fly his KR-2S. Therefore, he has asked me >> to list it for sale on the KR Net. His KR is powered by a Subaru >> EJ-22, (150 hp), with reduction unit. For more specifics, call Les >> at (972) 241-4387. > > This is one beautiful KR, or at least it was five or six years ago > when I saw it last. There are some pictures of it that I took in 1996 > at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/klesterp.html . It is set up as a > one place plane because Les is a big guy. The EJ-22 is a newer engine > than the Soob in the photos. Les also makes a lot of KR spare parts, > but I'm not sure > he'd be willing or able to do that now... > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama > see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford email to > N56ML "at" hiwaay.net > > > _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 14:53:32 +0200 From: "Andy Hatting" Subject: KR> toe-in To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <425BE0EC.267.C9961E@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Dear list, A friend of mine bought a smaller version of a piper cub in S.Africa. I have noticed that his toe-in both point to the right (if u sit in the plane), and the camber is also not looking great. How will this affect landing at,say, 70 to 80 mph? I thought that the overcompensation for the toe-in on landing would create quite a difficulty that could easily result in a groundloop or worse. Am I way off the mark? How crucial is this? My quiery stems from another members' enquiry about a similar problem. Andy Hatting Halfway there ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 09:55:51 -0500 From: "Brant Hollensbe" Subject: Re: KR> toe-in To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <000601c53f6f$b8af40a0$0702a8c0@bruntson> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Andy If both main wheels toe in (actually the right wheel is toed out) are set to point to the right, your friends airplane will pull to the right whenever it is motion. The faster your friend goes(on the ground) the more pronounced the pull to the right will be. When both wheel are set to toe in, the airplane will track straighter. If too much toe in used, the result will be difficultly in turning and tire scuffing. It sounds like your friend needs to spend a little time to reset the geometry on his landing gear. Brant Hollensbe bhollensbe@mchsi.com > have noticed that his toe-in both point to the right (if u sit in the > plane), and the camber is also not looking great. How will this affect > landing..... Andy Hatting ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 11:16:54 -0400 From: "Doug Rupert" Subject: RE: KR> Fuel injection in planes( LONG so BEWARE) To: "'KRnet'" Message-ID: <001701c53f72$aa33cbb0$6104e440@office> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" OK Colin I know this one is going to start a flame war but misinformation is worse than no information. First of all VW has been putting fuel injection on air-cooled engines since the late sixties or early seventies. A quick Google regarding the Bosch system will tell you all you need to know on the subject so I don't have to waste bandwidth here on the Net. Next mechanical fuel injection has been around long before electronic. Electronic ignition is now being used in Certified engines due to their proven reliability and less parts to screw up as do mags and distributors. Next comes the statement FLY SAFE. Sorry but as an Instructor(?) you of all people should know that flying of any type is NOT safe, it is a series of calculated risks and risk management. Anyone concerned with safety best turn in their pilot's license and dig an underground bunker to hide away from the world. Whether a person flies a spam can or an experimental, the results are the same it is still risk management and is the pilot in command's responsibility to decide whether or not to fly. Those airline pilots aren't just out for a stroll to stretch their legs prior to flight. They are evaluating the aircraft as to whether that aircraft poses an acceptable risk before flight. That is why we all perform preflight and hopefully post flight checks. I could go on and on but by now you and hopefully those that follow the list will have got the drift. Those Corvair drivers will have noticed that some of what I said sounds vaguely familiar. Yep, William Wynne boys. This list has a lot of ex-military pilots and they can all attest that risk management is a fact of life. What we normally would not do changes as the mission dictates. Rather than all this safety talk all builders and flyers should be more intent on building and flying aircraft that are constructed with risk management as the prime deciding factor before any changes are made or deviation from specifications. Doug Rupert Fuel injection is the cats meow for a combustion engine FLY SAFE! Colin & Beverly Rainey -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.7 - Release Date: 4/12/2005 ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 12:24:24 -0400 From: "Colin & Bev Rainey" Subject: KR> FLY SAFE VS RISK MANAGEMENT To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <002401c53f7c$173570c0$c7432141@RaineyDay> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" No flame war necessary or considered As a current CFI and ASC with FAA I do practice and teach RISK MANAGEMENT. However, just like so many of things we post here get converted to layman's terms, so does my recommendation to all pilots to remain as safe as possible given we are delving into an art and act of dangerous consequences. As a former military person you were also taught that restraint was better than speaking your mind completely lest you anger the CO regardless of the request to speak freely! LOL Keep it fun and informative Doug. My cautions are not discourage anyone from being an experimenter, or for using ANY available system that is an improvement over the existing equipment available. I agree with WW who quotes another A&P who stated" as soon as we are made aware of a superior product or part, we are obligated to use that part". As WW said, we balance between spending our remaining years on the couch saving our money, or calculating our risk, and attempting to stay within those parameters and go fly. I have met with WW himself, as well as read his manual and countless others. My cautions are simply, if you have the know how, use the available technology, if not, either get educated, or stay with what you know. That is the lowest risk option, to use Doug's approach. LOL I say FLY SAFE because most of our reader/builders are from the old school, and understand that we are just trying to be as safe as we can, not imply that flying is a safe venture. You are preaching to the choir Doug, save your breath. All here subscribe to that frame of mind one way or the other. My posts are aimed and intended to prompt a pilot/builder to think and keep thinking about his goals and his project, as are yours. I have read all your posts and enjoy them, if for no better reason to make me think as well. It takes all of us to present the vast sum of knowledge that exists on this net, that none other can compare. Keep them coming. All benefit with the exchange, even when it is a contradictory point of view. Allows everyone (including the author) to see all sides. (stubbornly) FLY SAFE! lol Colin & Beverly Rainey Apex Lending, Inc. 407-323-6960 (p) 407-557-3260 (f) www.eloan2004cr.com crainey@apexlending.com ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 12:27:29 -0400 From: "Colin & Bev Rainey" Subject: KR> Mechanical To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <003401c53f7c$85699170$c7432141@RaineyDay> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Have you priced a mechanical up to date fuel injection system from say a IO-360 lately? I can build a whole carbureted Corvair for the cost of the injection system alone. Point is not that it isn't available or good. It is whether for the money does it meet the builders needs or is it affordable vs. old reliable carb and gravity feed for these builders. Colin & Beverly Rainey Apex Lending, Inc. 407-323-6960 (p) 407-557-3260 (f) www.eloan2004cr.com crainey@apexlending.com ------------------------------ Message: 17 Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 11:22:14 -0500 From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> Fuel injection in planes( LONG so BEWARE) To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <035801c53f7b$c9f94110$5e0ca58c@net.tbe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="windows-1250"; reply-type=original Doug Rupert wrote: >>OK Colin I know this one is going to start a flame war but misinformation is worse than no information. First of all VW has been putting fuel injection on air-cooled engines since the late sixties or early seventies. << I used to be a "factory" VW mechanic at a dealership, and I have been a VW head since I was a kid, and I can tell you that those early "electronic" VW systems are problematic. If any one of about 25 ground wires falls off, you start having problems. I wouldn't fly with one of those if my life depended on it (and it would). Bosch CIS is far better (as you said), but it is bulky and way heavier than a carb. I know, because I've weighed it. I'd planned on using CIS myself, and I still may, but it's going to mean a bulge in the bottom of my cowling, and a weight increase over the lightweight carb and intake that I now have. I already have a fuel return line, which I'm now using as one of my two "completely redundant" fuel systems. But I'm just not sure it's worth the tradeoff. I can lean that Ellison down just as much as the CIS. The big advantage would be the elimination of carb icing, carb heat and mixture control knobs, and their constant adjustment. But the downside is weight, complexity, and having a 75 psi fuel pressure in the lines. You could start quite a fire in a hurry, and empty a tank in a hurry, with a ruptured fuel line. That's all manageable, and it's a trade, but the trade that made my decision is that I'll be flying at least a year earlier with that Ellison, than if I "engineered" a CIS setup, if not more. Once I get flying, I may reconsider CIS injection. There's more on this at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/CIS.html ... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford email to N56ML "at" hiwaay.net ------------------------------ Message: 18 Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 14:32:21 -0400 From: JAMES C FERRIS Subject: Re: KR> Checklists To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <20050412.143221.248.0.mijnil@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii what time do you plan to go over on Friday? Jim On Tue, 12 Apr 2005 03:29:48 -0400 "Colin & Bev Rainey" writes: > Hey Jim > Carpooling would be cool, if you want to go on Sunday. We are also > going to > the KR dinner Friday night. I have to work Wed & Thur nights, but am > off the > weekend. Ted is coming up on Sat to pick up the engine, so Sunday > looks best > for going to Lakeland. > > Are you planning on going to the dinner also? Brian has all the > details of > that. > > Colin & Beverly Rainey > Apex Lending, Inc. > 407-323-6960 (p) > 407-557-3260 (f) > www.eloan2004cr.com > crainey@apexlending.com > > > > _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at > http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > ------------------------------ Message: 19 Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 09:08:08 +1000 From: "Phillip Matheson" Subject: Re: KR> Fuel injection in planes./ EFI VW To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <010101c53fb4$7df81280$a7b0dccb@StationW2k04> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" It seems to me that many of you have not had a look at the NEW range of VW EFI engines from Vw Engines Australia / USA. 100 to 115 HP He even has a PSRU for your Corvair Engine. http://www.vw-engines.com/ Phillip Matheson matheson@dodo.com.au Australia VH PKR See our engines and kits at. http://www.vw-engines.com/ http://www.homebuilt-aviation.com/ See my KR Construction web page at http://mywebpage.netscape.com/FlyingKRPhil/VHPKR.html Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 20 Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 18:43:10 -0500 From: "Ron Eason" Subject: Re: KR> FLY SAFE VS RISK MANAGEMENT To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <004d01c53fb9$631c0ed0$6701a8c0@CADENGINEERING> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original ----- Original Message ----- From: "Colin & Bev Rainey" To: "KRnet" Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 11:24 AM Subject: KR> FLY SAFE VS RISK MANAGEMENT No flame war necessary or considered As some of you may know, I am building a modified KR2 with a supercharge, fuel injected 1915 cc VW engine, step by step. I would say VW but it not any longer a VW it's got all American performance and experimental aircraft after market components. I will have a full electronics fuel and ignition computerized management system using a PC, which will allow me to make on the fly engine tuning.[intact the software has a feature called auto-tune]. My backup system will be a magneto fixed timing and a gravity fad fuel induction with manual controls, this will get me home. The timing devices are a crank shaft position sensor and a distributor, that tells the computer which cylinder is firing. The system is a off the shelf after market system for racing applications.[not auto manufacture related] The Crank Shaft and Connecting Rods are balanced to within 1/2 gram tolerance. A lot of other details are incorporated, but to numerous to itemize. That's my plans, it's not finished yet because I am receiving my last shipment of ceramic coated combustion chamber components and polycoated bearings from Polydyn this week. In fact all the hot and cold manifolds are ceramic coated. The casing is going out for powder-coating next week [it's pay as you go for me]. Over the past 3 years or so I've researched and invested some money in the little joule. Right or wrong this is where I am going, and it going to be fun. I've taken photos but don't have time to upload them. KRRon ------------------------------ Message: 21 Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 21:08:20 -0400 From: "Doug Rupert" Subject: RE: KR> Fuel injection in planes( LONG so BEWARE) To: "'KRnet'" Message-ID: <001a01c53fc5$4988b390$6904e440@office> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Thanks for the first person info Mark. All I know is what I have read and that has been rather hard to find. I was really looking at the setup towards building a Type 4 until William’s manual arrived. Now if I can get a certain party in this area to part with one of the many vairs he has been hording, the conversion shall begin. Doug -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.7 - Release Date: 4/12/2005 ------------------------------ Message: 22 Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 21:08:20 -0400 From: "Doug Rupert" Subject: RE: KR> Mechanical To: "'KRnet'" Message-ID: <002301c53fc5$5561ff00$6904e440@office> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" I know what you mean there. Off the shelf items are off the planet price wise. One could theoretically use the injection system off a V-6 Chevy on the Corvair and reprogram it with one of those aftermarket black boxes.. but that is theory, practice might be something else altogether. I think William would be the one to ask regarding the feasibility with the Corvair. However VW has manufactured and used fuel injection on their air-cooled engines for years so getting one from a junk yard is not impossible. The wiring and program diagrams are posted on the net and if anyone wants them just ask and I'll ship them off channel. Doug -----Original Message----- From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-bounces@mylist.net] On Behalf Of Colin & Bev Rainey Have you priced a mechanical up to date fuel injection system from say a IO-360 lately? I can build a whole carbureted Corvair for the cost of the injection system alone. Point is not that it isn't available or good. It is whether for the money does it meet the builders needs or is it affordable vs. old reliable carb and gravity feed for these builders. Colin & Beverly Rainey -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.7 - Release Date: 4/12/2005 ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ See KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html End of KRnet Digest, Vol 347, Issue 145 *************************************** ================================== ABC Amber Outlook Converter v4.20 Trial version ==================================