From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net To: John Bouyea Subject: KRnet Digest, Vol 347, Issue 159 Date: 4/23/2005 9:00:17 PM Send KRnet mailing list submissions to krnet@mylist.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mylist.net/listinfo/krnet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to krnet-request@mylist.net You can reach the person managing the list at krnet-owner@mylist.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of KRnet digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: posa carbs (patrusso) 2. Re: posa carbs (patrusso) 3. Re: posa carbs (Dan Heath) 4. Re: posa carbs (Orma) 5. Counting KRs (John Bouyea) 6. Re: Project Update - Heat Muffs (raybeth123@sbcglobal.net) 7. Carb on top (Colin & Bev Rainey) 8. Re: Carb on top (raybeth123@sbcglobal.net) 9. Phone Number (raybeth123@sbcglobal.net) 10. Re: (no subject) (Lyracw@wmconnect.com) 11. Joe Horton (Mark Jones) 12. Re: Joe Horton (Dan Heath) 13. Re: Joe Horton (tinyauto@aol.com) 14. Re: posa carbs (Joe) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 06:13:41 -0400 From: "patrusso" Subject: Re: KR> posa carbs To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <001801c547ed$1ff77720$e1a672d8@patrusso> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original For all of you reponding to the Posa carb questions and with experience, how many of you had carb heat attached or had to modify the Posa to make it work? First hand experience or knowledge only need apply on that one. I know of so many people who Know so many people with marginal experience but never met anyone with FIRST HAND experience. It is very hard to evaluate the problems....based on hearsay. Pat ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe" To: "KRnet" Sent: Friday, April 22, 2005 8:56 PM Subject: Re: KR> posa carbs >I had a KR-2 back in the early 80s. It had a 1600 VW with a posa carb. >I had no problem with the posa. I am now flying a KR-2S with a >revflow carb. It works good too. > Joe Weber > N937JW > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Don Chisholm" > To: > Sent: Friday, April 22, 2005 5:52 AM > Subject: KR> posa carbs > > >>I imagine this is an old story with success >> and horror tales but I gather they can be >> made to work. I'm probably buying an >> Aerocarb but will give the posa another >> shot as I keep hearing and reading about >> some success stories and am interested >> in feedback both pro and con _______________________________________ >> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp >> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net >> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html >> > > > _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 06:28:24 -0400 From: "patrusso" Subject: Re: KR> posa carbs To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <003201c547ef$2e5bef60$e1a672d8@patrusso> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original I am toying with the idea of using a posa casb on top of the engine....and would welcome any comments. Engine is an 1835 VW. I thought perhaps a facet fuel pump with a back-up would be sufficient....perhaps a drain tray underneath to catch any leakage. This would eliminate the long intake pipes, save weight and provide a wee bit more to the HP, would it not? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe" To: "KRnet" Sent: Friday, April 22, 2005 8:56 PM Subject: Re: KR> posa carbs >I had a KR-2 back in the early 80s. It had a 1600 VW with a posa carb. I > had no problem with the posa. I am now flying a KR-2S with a revflow > carb. > It works good too. > Joe Weber > N937JW > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Don Chisholm" > To: > Sent: Friday, April 22, 2005 5:52 AM > Subject: KR> posa carbs > > >>I imagine this is an old story with success >> and horror tales but I gather they can be >> made to work. I'm probably buying an >> Aerocarb but will give the posa another >> shot as I keep hearing and reading about >> some success stories and am interested >> in feedback both pro and con >> _______________________________________ >> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp >> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net >> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html >> > > > _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 06:45:16 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) From: "Dan Heath" Subject: Re: KR> posa carbs To: Message-ID: <426A273C.000007.02876@DANHOMECOMPUTER> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Bad idea for the POSA. It leaks gas, on purpose, and I don't think that dumping gas on top of a hot engine is a good idea. Steve Bennett did this with an Ellison. Also, you cannot use a fuel pump with a POSA. There are planes flying with the POSA, but there are many more in the trash can, which is where mine should have gone after many hours of frustration. I bet I spent more money on gas while trying to get that piece of (*&)(^)^ to work, than my new Ellison cost me at the time. See you in Mt. Vernon - 2005 - KR Gathering See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics There is a time for building and a time for FLYING and the time for building has expired. Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC -------Original Message------- I am toying with the idea of using a posa casb on top of the engine....and would welcome any comments. ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 07:12:11 -0400 From: "Orma" Subject: Re: KR> posa carbs To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <008801c547f5$4d0c79b0$0402a8c0@ROBBINS1> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Hello Pat I ran a Posa carb for several years. I even ran it on top of the engine during one test. First of all, please see http://kr-2.aviation-mechanics.com/alert.htm The information may or may not apply to any Posa that you decide to use. I ran a Supercarb because it had mixture adjustment. The adjustment was crude and only slightly resolved the problems you read about earlier involving the ability to run good at midrange. As for the posa on top of the engine, mine started and ran better on top. The problem was in getting the fuel up to the top and then the problem that the fuel would run out of the carb until the engine started. That would not be good on a hot engine, even if you had a tray to catch and drain the fuel, If you want to run a carb on top, the only person I have seen do it was Steve Bennett. He ran an Ellison with a drain tray. Having been there and done that, I removed the Posa, not because it did not work, rather because I wanted a smoother operation. I settled on the RevFlow, and after playing with the needles for a while, feel that I run better in all ranges. Much better then I could ever get from the Posa. I also tried the Zenith carb for a few test runs and feel that for a smaller engine it was smoother then the others, I just could not get it to pass enough fuel at WOT, and the engine would run lean. Currently my fuel system is equipped with a RevFlow, a fuel pump and a dialable fuel restrictor to regulate how much fuel the carb gets. I have found that at 2366cc with the turbo, that I can't get enough fuel at full power without the aid of the pump. During one flight I was at high cruise power and turned the pump off and the engine started to miss due to being too lean. Orma Southfield, MI N110LR Tweety, old enough to drink this year Flying and more flying, to the gathering or bust http://www.kr-2.aviation-mechanics.com/ ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 05:52:20 -0700 From: "John Bouyea" Subject: KR> Counting KRs To: "KRNet" Message-ID: <000601c54803$49fe46f0$0201a8c0@dell4600> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Boy, did THIS make me laugh! Seriously Brian, it is not how many, it's what you do with them. Congrats on your progress on the Midget Mustang (even if it IS aluminum!) John Bouyea KR2 - hanging the engine accessories KR2S - boat hanging from the rafters john_0310@bouyea.net www.bouyea.net Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 22:30:42 -0400 From: "Brian Kraut" Subject: RE: KR> KR for sale with broken crank Must.............not...........buy............another..............KR. Wife will kill me for sure. But I do want to pass up John Bouyea for the all time record for having the most KRs. We are still tied. Brian Kraut Engineering Alternatives, Inc. www.engalt.com ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 11:37:16 -0500 From: Subject: Re: KR> Project Update - Heat Muffs To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <009f01c54822$b6604ea0$cf4a9445@DELL> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Dan, I happened to re-read an E-mail you sent earlier about cooling the oil cooler. Mine is cooled by ram air through the oil cooler and the air exits through the rear of the cooler. The "ram" air comes from the inside of the cowling. I will check the aircraft logbook for comments. The A&P that built and flew his KR2 for 147 hours on this engine is (or was, I don't know) from Tulsa. (American Airlines). Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Heath" To: Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2005 4:23 AM Subject: KR> Project Update - Heat Muffs > > See you in Mt. Vernon - 2005 - KR Gathering > KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 14:25:51 -0400 From: "Colin & Bev Rainey" Subject: KR> Carb on top To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <003d01c54831$e0f86620$c7432141@RaineyDay> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Any builder looking to run with carb on top needs to run one that is similar to an auto carb in that it has a good needle and seat style control for regulating fuel into the bowl. The problem that I have seen with alot of carbs being adapted to the KR engines is that they are purpose built, just not for our purpose. A carb used on our engines needs to be one designed for a moving vehicle, not adapted from an industrial application, or a farm tractor, or something else. A good candidate is the Weber series of carbs. Another are the Mikuni carbs from 4 cylinder engines (not from seadoos, not large enough) like the Honda Protégé or Accord. These carbs are designed to run daily with engine heat, so on top is okay, and they run with fuel pumps, so that is okay. Use the book AUTO MATH BOOK by John Lawlor to calculate the necessary cfm requirements for your application and then match the carb to it, always choosing to the low side of the cfm requirement. Example: if your engine calculates to needing say 368 cfm at your peak rpm, then choose an available 350 cfm carb, or 325 cfm whichever is readily available. This is one time where bigger is NOT better. Larger will cause hesitations, surging, and mixture problems through all ranges except peak rpm (which is what the carb would be selected to work at only in this case). Testing has shown that an oversized carb will actually cause the engine to slow down, or make less power not make more. Also make sure that it is a factory style carb and not after market like a Holley, which will require jetting and adjusting for all ranges and changes in season. Acquire a Carter brand electric pump which uses a better pumping mechanism to prevent flooding and has more volume flow without the pressure (see the Weber Carb site). The Posa requires too many modifications to make it acceptable. I think Jim Faughn is still running one on his 2180 VW. He goes into alot of detail on his site about it, as does Orma. Good reading. And here is a little tip alot of builders are missing: if you use a carb of late model design, say after 1975, it will not only be designed for best lean mix which will yield best performance, but will NOT require mixture control as it will be equipped with a barometrically controlled diaphragm that will automatically lean the mixture as you climb or atmospheric conditions change, the same way that the new FADEC engines alter the mix with electronic control by leaning the mixture. You will need to set the idle mixture and then the rest is preset mechanically based on factory adjustments internally. This is why the carb MUST be matched properly to the engine. They also have an accelerator pump eliminating the need for a primer system, AND making acceleration smoother due to fuel being added as the throttle is opened at the same time, something that even some of the aviation carbs do not have which cause the typical popping back and hesitation when the throttle is opened rapidly from idle. I have heard counter thoughts on this but we cannot replace the decades of development that have gone into the successful carbs of later cars. Use as is including the choke. The electric choke will do 2 things: make cold starts a non-issue, and will allow for an automatic richening of the mix if the incoming air is too cold. Power is applied to the choke to keep it hot, so the carb temp has to get really low for it to come on, but if it does, the mix will richen to compensate for low temp of the incoming air for proper fuel atomization. These enhancements took many years to develop and cured the mysterious surging, flat spots, "vapor locking" and other drivability problems associated with the pre-emission carbs. Just a quick note: long skinny runners for intake are more rpm sensitive and provide a better idle "signal" for smoother acceleration; short fat runners are better for overall rpm performance and make more power, but do not provide a good "signal" to the carb at low to intermediate rpm. More on this later.... Colin crainey1@cfl.rr.com http://kr-builder.org/Colin/index.html KR2(td) N96TA Sanford, FL Apex Lending, Inc. 407-323-6960 (p) 407-557-3260 (f) crainey@apexlending.com ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 13:44:59 -0500 From: Subject: Re: KR> Carb on top To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <018901c54834$8dd56940$cf4a9445@DELL> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original ----- Original Message ----- From: "Colin & Bev Rainey" To: "KRnet" Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2005 1:25 PM Subject: KR> Carb on top Any builder looking to run with carb on top needs to run one that is similar to an auto carb in that it has a good needle and seat style control for regulating fuel into the bowl. The problem that I have seen with alot of carbs being adapted to the KR engines is that they are purpose built, just not for our purpose. A carb used on our engines needs to be one designed for a moving vehicle, not adapted from an industrial application, or a farm tractor, or something else. A good candidate is the Weber series of carbs. Another are the Mikuni carbs from 4 cylinder engines (not from seadoos, not large enough) like the Honda Protégé or Accord. These carbs are designed to run daily with engine heat, so on top is okay, and they run with fuel pumps, so that is okay. Use the book AUTO MATH BOOK by John Lawlor to calculate the necessary cfm requirements for your application and then match the carb to it, always choosing to the low side of the cfm requirement. Example: if your engine calculates to needing say 368 cfm at your peak rpm, then choose an available 350 cfm carb, or 325 cfm whichever is readily available. This is one time where bigger is NOT better. Larger will cause hesitations, surging, and mixture problems through all ranges except peak rpm (which is what the carb would be selected to work at only in this case). Testing has shown that an oversized carb will actually cause the engine to slow down, or make less power not make more. Also make sure that it is a factory style carb and not after market like a Holley, which will require jetting and adjusting for all ranges and changes in season. Acquire a Carter brand electric pump which uses a better pumping mechanism to prevent flooding and has more volume flow without the pressure (see the Weber Carb site). The Posa requires too many modifications to make it acceptable. I think Jim Faughn is still running one on his 2180 VW. He goes into alot of detail on his site about it, as does Orma. Good reading. And here is a little tip alot of builders are missing: if you use a carb of late model design, say after 1975, it will not only be designed for best lean mix which will yield best performance, but will NOT require mixture control as it will be equipped with a barometrically controlled diaphragm that will automatically lean the mixture as you climb or atmospheric conditions change, the same way that the new FADEC engines alter the mix with electronic control by leaning the mixture. You will need to set the idle mixture and then the rest is preset mechanically based on factory adjustments internally. This is why the carb MUST be matched properly to the engine. They also have an accelerator pump eliminating the need for a primer system, AND making acceleration smoother due to fuel being added as the throttle is opened at the same time, something that even some of the aviation carbs do not have which cause the typical popping back and hesitation when the throttle is opened rapidly from idle. I have heard counter thoughts on this but we cannot replace the decades of development that have gone into the successful carbs of later cars. Use as is including the choke. The electric choke will do 2 things: make cold starts a non-issue, and will allow for an automatic richening of the mix if the incoming air is too cold. Power is applied to the choke to keep it hot, so the carb temp has to get really low for it to come on, but if it does, the mix will richen to compensate for low temp of the incoming air for proper fuel atomization. These enhancements took many years to develop and cured the mysterious surging, flat spots, "vapor locking" and other drivability problems associated with the pre-emission carbs. Just a quick note: long skinny runners for intake are more rpm sensitive and provide a better idle "signal" for smoother acceleration; short fat runners are better for overall rpm performance and make more power, but do not provide a good "signal" to the carb at low to intermediate rpm. More on this later.... Colin crainey1@cfl.rr.com http://kr-builder.org/Colin/index.html KR2(td) N96TA Sanford, FL Apex Lending, Inc. 407-323-6960 (p) 407-557-3260 (f) crainey@apexlending.com _______________________________________ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 14:18:03 -0500 From: Subject: KR> Phone Number To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <01ac01c54839$2cf77dc0$cf4a9445@DELL> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I am looking for a phone number and an E-mail address for Mike Ladigo of Tulsa, Ok. Thanks, Ray Goree (raybeth123@sbcglobal.net) Ray Goree 817-795-4779 ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 15:18:09 EDT From: Lyracw@wmconnect.com Subject: Re: KR> (no subject) To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <9b.5e2828c8.2f9bf971@wmconnect.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 16:27:09 -0500 From: "Mark Jones" Subject: KR> Joe Horton To: "KR Net" , "Corvaircraft" Message-ID: <008201c5484b$3aed3b60$6401a8c0@wi.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I have updated Joe Horton's web page with four new photos he sent me. His plane is getting real close. Here is the link to take a look. http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj/JoeHorton2.html Mark Jones (N886MJ) Wales, WI USA E-mail me at flykr2s@wi.rr.com Visit my KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj/homepage.html ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 17:34:29 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) From: "Dan Heath" Subject: Re: KR> Joe Horton To: Message-ID: <426ABF65.000012.00352@DANHOMECOMPUTER> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Mark, Thanks for the post. That plane really looks good. See you in Mt. Vernon - 2005 - KR Gathering See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics There is a time for building and a time for FLYING and the time for building has expired. Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 23:36:49 -0400 From: tinyauto@aol.com Subject: Re: KR> Joe Horton To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <8C71695FBC7E8F0-7A4-149C@mblk-r26.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" That is one goood looking bird! Kevin. -----Original Message----- From: Mark Jones To: KR Net ; Corvaircraft Sent: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 16:27:09 -0500 Subject: KR> Joe Horton I have updated Joe Horton's web page with four new photos he sent me. His plane is getting real close. Here is the link to take a look. http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj/JoeHorton2.html Mark Jones (N886MJ) Wales, WI USA E-mail me at flykr2s@wi.rr.com Visit my KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj/homepage.html _______________________________________ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 22:38:14 -0500 From: "Joe" Subject: Re: KR> posa carbs To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <000e01c5487f$0c18de50$85cab4d8@Denise> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Pat: I did not modify the posa and I did not have carb heat, yet it worked good. Joe Weber ----- Original Message ----- From: "patrusso" To: "KRnet" Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2005 5:13 AM Subject: Re: KR> posa carbs > For all of you reponding to the Posa carb questions and with experience, > how > many of you had carb heat attached or had to modify the Posa to make it > work? First hand experience or knowledge only need apply on that one. I > know > of so many people who Know so many people with marginal experience but > never > met anyone with FIRST HAND experience. It is very hard to evaluate the > problems....based on hearsay. > Pat > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joe" > To: "KRnet" > Sent: Friday, April 22, 2005 8:56 PM > Subject: Re: KR> posa carbs > > >>I had a KR-2 back in the early 80s. It had a 1600 VW with a posa carb. I >> had no problem with the posa. I am now flying a KR-2S with a revflow >> carb. >> It works good too. >> Joe Weber >> N937JW >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Don Chisholm" >> To: >> Sent: Friday, April 22, 2005 5:52 AM >> Subject: KR> posa carbs >> >> >>>I imagine this is an old story with success >>> and horror tales but I gather they can be >>> made to work. I'm probably buying an >>> Aerocarb but will give the posa another >>> shot as I keep hearing and reading about >>> some success stories and am interested >>> in feedback both pro and con >>> _______________________________________ >>> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp >>> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net >>> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________ >> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp >> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net >> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > > _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ See KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html End of KRnet Digest, Vol 347, Issue 159 *************************************** ================================== ABC Amber Outlook Converter v4.20 Trial version ==================================