From: krnet-bounces+johnbou=speakeasy.net@mylist.net To: John Bouyea Subject: KRnet Digest, Vol 347, Issue 161 Date: 4/25/2005 12:28:16 PM Send KRnet mailing list submissions to krnet@mylist.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mylist.net/listinfo/krnet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to krnet-request@mylist.net You can reach the person managing the list at krnet-owner@mylist.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of KRnet digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Specs (Colin & Bev Rainey) 2. Re: Specs (Mark Jones) 3. pressure/volume (Colin & Bev Rainey) 4. RE: pressure/volume (Mark Jones) 5. RE: pressure/volume (Mark Jones) 6. R?f. : RE: KR> pressure/volume (Serge VIDAL) 7. Re: Specs (Martindale Family) 8. RE: wing ridgidity (Golden, Kevin) 9. Wing tips (a1frankie@netzero.com) 10. Richard Shirley KR1 (sph12@sbcglobal.net) 11. Re: Wing tips (Donald Reid) 12. Re: R?f. : RE: KR> pressure/volume (Orma) 13. RE: Specs (Doug Rupert) 14. Oil Capacity (Colin & Bev Rainey) 15. Re: pressure/volume (Mark Langford) 16. RE: Oil Capacity (Mark Jones) 17. Specs etc... (Colin & Bev Rainey) 18. Capacity (Colin & Bev Rainey) 19. Re: wing ridgidity (Dene Collett (SA)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 06:37:35 -0400 From: "Colin & Bev Rainey" Subject: KR> Specs To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <007201c54982$cb67c9c0$c7432141@RaineyDay> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Just to share a couple of specs from auto engines: Engine oil needs to have viscosity matched to temp range, the lower the "W" number the lower the temp it is designed to handle. 5W30 is the best for really cold temps AND for all modern small oil port engines. The 5W allows it to still flow in temps around 20-25 degrees below zero F. 10W30 is your best all around oil grade. Only goes down to 10-15 below, but has better durability in warmer weather, up to about 100 degrees F. 10W40 needs to be reserved for areas like Florida, and Arizona, Southern California where the engine will see constant temps 75-85 and above. It can handle as low as the 10W30 but goes up to around 120 degrees F. 20W50 should only be used when severe duty is called for, or temps are regularly hitting over 100 degrees in daytime. It can handle up to approx 150 degrees F. It can only go down to approx 15 degrees above zero though so its use in winter is NOT recommended. In between grades may show good oil pressure numbers but will not flow throughout the engine as well as a lesser grade designed for the temp. Remember, we are using auto engines. The engine does not know it is in the plane, only the temps it is being asked to run in, and the work it is being asked to perform. Good oil pressure is 10 pounds per 1000 rpms. So at cruise 35-45 psi is good. Idle at 700-800 with 10-15 psi is good, as long as this is hot oil pressure. It should always be higher at startup. Higher oil pressures risk starving the bottom end by pumping the oil pan dry, especially if you do not have an over sized oil pan. The original manufacturer matched the oil capacity with the oil pressure/flow so that this would not be a problem. Make sure not to use a high pressure high volume oil pump with out increased capacity, or you may starve the bottom end bearings with all the oil pumped to the heads during higher rpm operation. Mark, 15W40 might be a little too thick of an oil for the weather you are currently having. I would go with 10W30 or even 5W30 as long as you have snow on the ground, or the potential anyway. Remember, you are also cooling way off as soon as you climb out, so take that into account also. Not too much longer and I will join the Corvair crowd in the air! Colin crainey1@cfl.rr.com http://kr-builder.org/Colin/index.html KR2(td) N96TA Sanford, FL Apex Lending, Inc. 407-323-6960 (p) 407-557-3260 (f) crainey@apexlending.com ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 06:02:21 -0500 From: "Mark Jones" Subject: Re: KR> Specs To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <002001c54986$45d724a0$6401a8c0@wi.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Colin & Bev Rainey" > Make sure not to use a high pressure high volume oil pump with out increased capacity, or you may starve the >bottom end bearings with all the oil pumped to the heads during higher rpm operation. I disagree with this statement. A high volume oil pump is not a high pressure oil pump. The pressure regulating valve determines the oil pressure. It does not matter if it is high volume or not. If you have a 40 psi spring you get 40 psi. You can install a 60 psi spring and that will give you high pressure. I just replaced a 40 psi spring which was only giving me 28 psi at cruise. Proof is in the pudding as I have a high volume pump. > Mark, 15W40 might be a little too thick of an oil for the weather you > are currently having. I would go with 10W30 or >even 5W30 as long as you have snow on the ground, or the potential anyway. Remember, you are also cooling way >off as soon as you climb out, so take that into account also. I am using the Shell Rotella T per the highly recommendation of William Wynne. Over the last couple of weeks I have discussed temps and oil with William many times trying to determine why I was getting the low pressure and high oil; temps. The oil is designed for higher operating temps therefore providing more protection at our operating ranges. Ambient temps here are prime for this grade oil right now. This oil is what William is running in his Vairs. I will change grade as needed as temps dictate. Mark Jones (N886MJ) Wales, WI USA E-mail me at flykr2s@wi.rr.com Visit my KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj/homepage.html > > > Not too much longer and I will join the Corvair crowd in the air! > > Colin > crainey1@cfl.rr.com > http://kr-builder.org/Colin/index.html > KR2(td) N96TA > Sanford, FL > Apex Lending, Inc. > 407-323-6960 (p) > 407-557-3260 (f) > crainey@apexlending.com _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 07:24:58 -0400 From: "Colin & Bev Rainey" Subject: KR> pressure/volume To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <00bb01c54989$69e8d160$c7432141@RaineyDay> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I do not disagree with the fact that high volume is not the same as high pressure, and I see from the way I said it how one could infer that. My remarks are geared at using either when not necessary. William states several times in his conversion manual that the stock oiling system is more than adequate in the Corvair motor, and that high pressure or high volume are not necessary unless you have long lines to things like remote coolers/oil filter relocation kits. Replacing the pressure spring as you did to restore stock like oil pressures is not what I was aiming at, but rather those who would think more is better and install the highest available which would only be necessary for engines running at rpms we will not see. The point that I was making was that any oil pressure significantly over stock (say more than 10 psi hot) without increasing the overall oil capacity runs the risk of leaving too little oil in the pan for proper operation at cruise. This is why I am using William's deep sump pan with modified pickup tube as added insurance during maneuvering flight, and acceleration/deceleration because it will give me approximately 2 quarts more capacity helping the engine run cooler and have more total capacity for insurance against cavitation. In our application excess oil pressure or volume, without increased capacity to match it is treading on thin ice and unnecessary. This goes for any engine. I appreciate the recommendations from William about your particular case, however a review of the SAE temp recommendations disagrees with your grade of oil. It shows on the high end of recommended viscosity. Run what you are comfortable with, just pointing this out. crainey1@cfl.rr.com http://kr-builder.org/Colin/index.html KR2(td) N96TA Sanford, FL Apex Lending, Inc. 407-323-6960 (p) 407-557-3260 (f) crainey@apexlending.com ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 07:46:36 -0500 From: "Mark Jones" Subject: RE: KR> pressure/volume To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <26D1C67793459F43BF8DA235F92B1F3549DA16@tulsaexchange.tulsaokmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" -----Original Message----- Colin & Bev Rainey Subject: KR> pressure/volume >William states several times in his conversion manual that the stock >oiling system is more >than adequate in the Corvair motor, and that high pressure or high volume are not necessary >unless you have long lines to things like remote coolers/oil filter relocation kits. I absolutely agree that if you have stock, stay stock. I do not. I have remote oil cooler and remote oil filter. This was my reasoning on using the high volume pump. At the time I built my engine, William did not have the deep oil pan and all aftermarket ones were simply too heavy to consider. William, some time ago, made a post called the "Mother of all Oil Post". In this post he stated that he once added two additional quarts of oil to his engine with a stock pan and flew it with no problems. I remember reading somewhere that you can add extra oil as long as the oil does not fill the lower end of the push rod tubes. Since I do not have a deep pan, maybe I should fill the engine with oil till it reaches the bottom of the push rod tubes. This is easily done with the top cover off, then mark the dipstick accordingly. Thoughts??? >I appreciate the recommendations from William about your particular >case, however a review >of the SAE temp recommendations disagrees with >your grade of oil. It shows on the high end >of recommended viscosity. >Run what you are comfortable with, just pointing this out. I will study these charts and make the appropriate change. Possibly when he advised me to run this grade, he was not thinking of our ambient temps. Thanks, Mark Jones (N886MJ) Wales, WI crainey1@cfl.rr.com http://kr-builder.org/Colin/index.html KR2(td) N96TA Sanford, FL Apex Lending, Inc. 407-323-6960 (p) 407-557-3260 (f) crainey@apexlending.com _______________________________________ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 08:03:15 -0500 From: "Mark Jones" Subject: RE: KR> pressure/volume To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <26D1C67793459F43BF8DA235F92B1F3549DA17@tulsaexchange.tulsaokmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" -----Original Message----- Colin & Bev Rainey I appreciate the recommendations from William about your particular case, however a review of the SAE temp recommendations disagrees with your grade of oil. It shows on the high end of recommended viscosity. Run what you are comfortable with, just pointing this out. Colin, Here is the Shell report on this Rotella T oil: http://www.shell-lubricants.com/products/pdf/RotellaTMG.pdf Mark Jones (N886MJ) Wales, WI ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 15:16:45 +0200 From: Serge VIDAL Subject: R?f. : RE: KR> pressure/volume To: KRnet Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I always thought that the SAE temperature bracket was referring to the ambient temperatures planned for the operating environment, expressed in degrees Celsius. Isn't that the case? Serge Vidal KR2 "Kilimanjaro Cloud" Paris, France "Mark Jones" Envoyé par : krnet-bounces@mylist.net 2005-04-25 15:03 Veuillez répondre à KRnet Remis le : 2005-04-25 15:01 Pour : "KRnet" cc : (ccc : Serge VIDAL/DNSA/SAGEM) Objet : RE: KR> pressure/volume -----Original Message----- Colin & Bev Rainey I appreciate the recommendations from William about your particular case, however a review of the SAE temp recommendations disagrees with your grade of oil. It shows on the high end of recommended viscosity. Run what you are comfortable with, just pointing this out. Colin, Here is the Shell report on this Rotella T oil: http://www.shell-lubricants.com/products/pdf/RotellaTMG.pdf Mark Jones (N886MJ) Wales, WI _______________________________________ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 23:16:20 +1000 From: "Martindale Family" Subject: Re: KR> Specs To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <000701c54998$f92c16c0$da26ecdc@athlon2400> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" "Higher oil pressures risk starving the bottom end by pumping the oil pan dry, especially if you do not have an over sized oil pan. The original manufacturer matched the oil capacity with the oil pressure/flow so that this would not be a problem. Make sure not to use a high pressure high volume oil pump with out increased capacity, or you may starve the bottom end bearings with all the oil pumped to the heads during higher rpm operation." Hi Colin I don't understand this....where does the oil go if not back to the pan and why, if pressure is equal throughout the system (hydraulic theory) does the bottom starve to the benefit of the heads. Another risk with a high volume pump is the extra strain on its drive train. John The Martindale Family 29 Jane Circuit TOORMINA NSW 2452 AUSTRALIA phone: 61 2 66584767 email: johnjanet@optusnet.com.au ----- Original Message ----- From: "Colin & Bev Rainey" To: "KRnet" Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 8:37 PM Subject: KR> Specs > Just to share a couple of specs from auto engines: > Engine oil needs to have viscosity matched to temp range, the lower > the "W" number the lower the temp it is designed to handle. 5W30 is the best for really cold temps AND for all modern small oil port engines. The 5W allows it to still flow in temps around 20-25 degrees below zero F. > 10W30 is your best all around oil grade. Only goes down to 10-15 > below, but has better durability in warmer weather, up to about 100 degrees F. > 10W40 needs to be reserved for areas like Florida, and Arizona, > Southern California where the engine will see constant temps 75-85 and above. It can handle as low as the 10W30 but goes up to around 120 degrees F. > 20W50 should only be used when severe duty is called for, or temps are regularly hitting over 100 degrees in daytime. It can handle up to approx 150 degrees F. It can only go down to approx 15 degrees above zero though so its use in winter is NOT recommended. > In between grades may show good oil pressure numbers but will not flow throughout the engine as well as a lesser grade designed for the temp. Remember, we are using auto engines. The engine does not know it is in the plane, only the temps it is being asked to run in, and the work it is being asked to perform. Good oil pressure is 10 pounds per 1000 rpms. So at cruise 35-45 psi is good. Idle at 700-800 with 10-15 psi is good, as long as this is hot oil pressure. It should always be higher at startup. Higher oil pressures risk starving the bottom end by pumping the oil pan dry, especially if you do not have an over sized oil pan. The original manufacturer matched the oil capacity with the oil pressure/flow so that this would not be a problem. Make sure not to use a high pressure high volume oil pump with out increased capacity, or you may starve the bottom end bearings with all the oil pumped to the heads during higher rpm operation. > > Mark, 15W40 might be a little too thick of an oil for the weather you > are currently having. I would go with 10W30 or even 5W30 as long as you have snow on the ground, or the potential anyway. Remember, you are also cooling way off as soon as you climb out, so take that into account also. > > Not too much longer and I will join the Corvair crowd in the air! > > Colin > crainey1@cfl.rr.com > http://kr-builder.org/Colin/index.html > KR2(td) N96TA > Sanford, FL > Apex Lending, Inc. > 407-323-6960 (p) > 407-557-3260 (f) > crainey@apexlending.com _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 09:24:25 -0400 From: "Golden, Kevin" Subject: RE: KR> wing ridgidity To: 'KRnet' Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain Is anyone building a KR landing gear to be more like the Wittman gear? I would like to build the gear to come off of the motor mount like the RV's, Tailwind, T18, etc, but with a bit of a mixture of gear like the Titan Tornado has. In other words, with Wittman gear, but instead of tapered steel gear legs, they would be fiberglass rods. This is for the KR1. Now the load is on the firewall. Kevin. -----Original Message----- From: Martindale Family [mailto:johnjanet@optusnet.com.au] Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2005 7:13 PM To: KRnet Subject: Re: KR> wing ridgidity Hi Dean That sounds like a neat way to do it. My question is how do you get the wheels to finish up forward of the main spar (assuming a tail dragger) after extension from wells located between the spars? Do you somehow have the main tube running at an angle between the spars? Also, how far out is your pivot from the fuselage? I guess that having it at the ends of the stubs would allow the longest gear legs but then more stub distance and leg length would promote more twist between the spars which seems to be your concern. I think some uni-directional or carbon fibre strap, especially across the bottom of the wing between the pivot brackets wouldn't be a bad thing but I've no engineering analysis to support that. >From vague memory, my TC has his gear legs hanging off an extension of >the tube you mention that goes through the centre of the main and stops in the wing nose. His gear then folds up into the leading edge wing root fillet which is enlarged to allow it, that is, his legs and wheels all tuck away forward of the spar. I prefer your arrangement Dean but it would mean no stub fuel tanks...hmmm John The Martindale Family 29 Jane Circuit TOORMINA NSW 2452 AUSTRALIA phone: 61 2 66584767 email: johnjanet@optusnet.com.au ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dene Collett (SA)" To: "KRnet" Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 6:27 AM Subject: KR> wing ridgidity > Since my retract gear is attached to a tube running between the front > and rear spars that locates in a self aligning bearing/bush at each end much like the head of a rod end bearing which is attached by the WAF bolts to the spars, my question is: How ridgid is the wing with regard to the distance between the two spars once the skin is laid up (Mark L style skins)? > For those that have seen the lancair 360 gear, mine is very similar > where it attaches to the wing spars which means that if the spars move approx 1/2" further apart, the gear will become "unplugged". My stubs are not yet skinned and the rear spar is able to move forward and back with very little effort. How much force would it take to cause the wing to "stretch" once skinned and attached to the outer wing? > I suppose I could put a wrap of uni-directional tape around the wing > in the area of the WAF's?? > Regards > Dene Collett > South Africa > KR2SRT builder > mailto: dene.collett@telkomsa.net > www.whisperaircraft.co.za _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html _______________________________________ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html *The information contained in this message may be confidential and/or subject to legal privilege, and is for the use of the intended addressee only. Any unauthorized use, dissemination or copying of the information in this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this message.* ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 13:28:20 GMT From: "a1frankie@netzero.com" Subject: KR> Wing tips To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <20050425.062855.29075.485380@webmail03.lax.untd.com> Content-Type: text/plain Does any one know where I can find information on effectiveness or efficiency of wing tips? Is there a consensus on the best wing tip for the KR2S? Any test results? Does the wing section make a difference for the best tip? ______________________________________________________________________ Speed up your surfing with NetZero HiSpeed. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/month -visit http://www.netzero.com/surf to sign up today! ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 08:50:47 -0500 From: Subject: KR> Richard Shirley KR1 To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <012301c5499d$c9cff770$800101df@shendersonlt> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Does anyone know what kind of engine that Richard Shirley will be putting in his KR1? Will it be a Corvair? Thanks, Steve Stephen Henderson Project Manager Witt Biomedical Corporation Corporate: 800.669.1328 Cell: 800.273.7983 Email: shenderson@wittbiomedical.com ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 10:20:34 -0400 From: Donald Reid Subject: Re: KR> Wing tips To: KRnet Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.2.20050425101521.01b63028@mail.peoplepc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 09:28 AM 4/25/2005, you wrote: >Does any one know where I can find information on effectiveness or >efficiency of wing tips? Is there a consensus on the best wing tip for the >KR2S? Any test results? Does the wing section make a difference for the >best tip? I don't have the reference in front of me, but when you combine simple to build and efficiency the best is probably a triangular extension that is approximately as long as the tip chord. The outer end of the extension has the same profile as the tip airfoil but it is only a few inches long. Steve Whitman used them on his later designs. Don Reid - donreid "at" peoplepc.com Bumpass, Va Visit my web sites at: AeroFoil, a 2-D Airfoil Design And Analysis Computer Program: http://aerofoilengineering.com KR2XL construction: http://aerofoilengineering.com/KR/KR2XL.htm Aviation Surplus: http://aerofoilengineering.com/PartsListing/Airparts.htm EAA Chapter 231: http://eaa231.org Ultralights: http://usua250.org VA EAA State Fly-in: http://vaeaa.org ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 10:47:10 -0400 From: "Orma" Subject: Re: R?f. : RE: KR> pressure/volume To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <003f01c549a5$aa499e30$0302a8c0@ROBBINS1> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original "I always thought" Serge I could not remember the answer to that myself, so I went to the net and looked up oil viscosity and got the following site http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question164.htm The long and short of it is stated in their example The viscosity grade (for example, 5W-30) tells you the oil's thickness, or viscosity. A thin oil has a lower number and flows more easily, while thick oils have a higher number and are more resistant to flow. Water has a very low viscosity -- it is thin and flows easily. Honey has a very high viscosity -- it is thick and gooey. There is probably a specific temperature that the testing is performed at. The W in 5W-30 says the oil can be used in Winter. " Viscosity is ordinarily expressed in terms of the time required for a standard quantity of the fluid at a certain temperature to flow through a standard orifice. The higher the value, the more viscous the fluid. Since viscosity varies inversely with temperature, its value is meaningless unless accompanied by the temperature at which it is determined. With petroleum oils, viscosity is now commonly reported in centistokes (cSt), measured at either 40°C or 100 °C (ASTM Method D445 - Kinematic Viscosity). " Orma Southfield, MI N110LR Tweety, old enough to drink this year Flying and more flying, to the gathering or bust http://www.kr-2.aviation-mechanics.com/ ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 11:45:08 -0400 From: "Doug Rupert" Subject: RE: KR> Specs To: "'KRnet'" Message-ID: <001701c549ad$c2fe1b10$a804e440@office> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Colin: there have been actual independent scientific studies done on multi-grade oils and the same was found about all brands, all the hype is a crock. The oil stays at the lowest viscosity marked on the label. (i.e. 5W30 always acts like 5 weight no matter what temp) It should be noted that the lower grade marking is for start-up only in colder climates as heavier oil takes longer to flow at lower ambient temperatures. This is a non-issue with our intended usage. The best way to think of it is ask yourself why assembly lube is so thick, the answer is simple, the lighter the oil the faster it will run off the part it is supposed to be lubricating leaving you with a completely dry cylinder wall or bearing surface at startup. Not a good situation under any circumstances. The owner is better off using a straight grade of oil and changing it more often as climatic conditions dictate. The only discernable difference between the different brands was the amount and type of additives in each. Rotella T from Shell is in fact a very high detergent oil made for diesel engines. As a matter of interest to those here that ride motorcycles, 20W50 Harley oil is in fact 20W50 Aeroshell. Over the years I personally have used Valvoline in all my engines with spectacular results and have never experienced bearing failure even under the extreme conditions these engines are faced with. Hey if it's good enough for $100,000 racing motors it surely is good enough for me. This was a point of contention with my sponsor (Shell) on several of my drag race bikes but I would not back down and they had to be content with supplying the fuel only (100LL). You are right regarding small oil ports on modern engines but let us not forget that most of the KRNet guys are running VW's or Corvairs and these cannot be termed modern engines by any stretch of the imagination. High volume oil pumps are a good addition to any engine to aid in heat dissipation BUT as you have stated they must be accompanied by a deep sump. As well bearings need to have a modification done to them to take advantage of this greater volume as well as the addition of a high quality oil cooler. Heat kills, no matter whether oil, water or air and that is why great pains have been taken over the years to design balanced systems that work together in keeping engines within certain operating temperatures. Builders need to keep in mind that ALL these factors need to be addressed when making changes to any engine used for purposes other than that they were originally designed for. Doug Rupert -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.2 - Release Date: 4/21/2005 ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 14:32:44 -0400 From: "Colin & Bev Rainey" Subject: KR> Oil Capacity To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <004101c549c5$2c644180$c7432141@RaineyDay> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Not being as familiar with the Corvair as other 6 cyl engines I don't know what the "overfill" limit would be. What we always cautioned against happening with an overfill situation was the crankshaft getting completely covered with oil and then "beating" the oil like an egg beater and causing it to foam. I guess you could carefully add oil until this happened, and then drop back one quart to be sure it would not happen, doing the test with no load just static running. Or you could just add the extra 2 quarts and watch for this, which might be safer since William has tested the engine at this volume. I do not want to claim to be all knowing about oils, especially with all the advancements in synthetics today, I just hate to see anyone get fooled by high oil pressure numbers in the cold, and in reality part of their engine is not getting proper lubrication due to lack of flow causing excessive wear or the potential for failure. All of us work too hard to get to completion, the builders that started from scratch especially! Colin crainey1@cfl.rr.com http://kr-builder.org/Colin/index.html KR2(td) N96TA Sanford, FL Apex Lending, Inc. 407-323-6960 (p) 407-557-3260 (f) crainey@apexlending.com ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 13:58:38 -0500 From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> pressure/volume To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <01f701c549c8$ca5804a0$5e0ca58c@net.tbe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Mark Jones wrote: >>Since I do not have a deep pan, maybe I should fill the engine with >>oil >>till it reaches the bottom of the push rod tubes. This is easily done with >>the top cover off, then mark the dipstick accordingly. Thoughts??? << That's where I keep my oil level, just below the pushrods. I've had both of my heads off for a week now, so that's exactly where it ended up after the excess ran out! If I were at home right now, I'd be able to tell you how far that is below the dipstick tube boss. Maybe tonight, if I remember. In an interesting side note, VW/Audi recently had a big "AD" that basically says "use nothing but 5W-40 synthetic for practically all conditions". The spec is so stringent that only a few oils meet it, among them being 5w-40 Valvoline Synpower, which is an off-the-shelf item at NAPA auto parts stores - part # 966 - for under $4 a quart. Good stuff for "cheap" (for a synthetic). You can get your AC plugs, points, and condensors for your Corvair while you're there... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford email to N56ML "at" hiwaay.net ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 14:04:32 -0500 From: "Mark Jones" Subject: RE: KR> Oil Capacity To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <26D1C67793459F43BF8DA235F92B1F3549DA1D@tulsaexchange.tulsaokmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" -----Original Message----- Behalf Of Colin & Bev Rainey Not being as familiar with the Corvair as other 6 cyl engines I don't know what the "overfill" limit would be. What we always cautioned against happening with an overfill situation was the crankshaft getting completely covered with oil and then "beating" the oil like an egg beater and causing it to foam. The crankshaft on the Corvair is at the top so this would not be an issue. However, the cam is on the bottom therefore that could be an issue but not as severe as a crank since the cam is much smaller and only has lobes. I have not reinstalled my top cover yet and I will take a look at this when I am at the airport tomorrow evening. Mark Jones (N886MJ) Wales, WI ------------------------------ Message: 17 Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 15:14:05 -0400 From: "Colin & Bev Rainey" Subject: KR> Specs etc... To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <008d01c549ca$f2cf71f0$c7432141@RaineyDay> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" John to answer your question, in the higher rpm situations the oil pump can pump under pressure the oil volume from the pan faster than gravity can return the oil to the pan. Our system and virtually every auto engine made has a gravity return, unless it is using a dry sump setup, which I will not go into here. Since the size of these oil return holes and gravity are responsible for the oil returning to the pan, it is important that we don't run into the potential of pumping a majority of our oil into the heads leaving too little in the pan, which could "slosh" to one side and uncover the pickup tube, causing air to be sucked into the oil system, which is the type of starving I am talking about. I am running the stock oil system with oil cooler and filter in stock locations, so my oil pressure volume only needs to be what a new pump is stock on a new engine per Chevy. Mark Jones is running longer lines and remote setup and I agree this can/will cause some drop in the system pressure, delay in volume circulation, so it is appropriate for his system, and anyone like it (Mark L, & Bill Clapp) to do the same with in reason. Just remember that anything beyond stock pressures is probably excessive, and is also requiring more internal horsepower to generate, leaving a little bit less for the prop. Multi-viscosity oils are rated by the detergent additives that allow them to thicken and thin based on the outside ambient temp, and their temperature of operation. Serge, you probably saw numbers changed into the metric system, we here would see them posted on literature in F. The first number before the "W" is the winter rating, oil's ability to thin, and the second is the summer rating, and ability to thicken, or withstand high temperature before breakdown. The manufacturers do not add the "S" because it would be redundant. Doug and anyone who believes that running straight weight oils is just as good as multi-viscosity oils, just look at how long your engines last presently compared to the late 60's early 70's. This is pre-dominantly due to 2 things: oil technology, and internal temperature, which both work together to control wear. Filter technology also contributes here. Harley engines for years failed after very short times as compared to the Japanese motorcycle engines which were modified to take advantage of modern oils and technology. Not until this latest emergence of the Harley Evolution series of engines did Harley enter the world of truly modern engine design. The use of 20W50 oil in any engine that doesn't match the temp of the application for continued use, not just startup temp is foolhardy and an act of ignorance to what 50 years of development have accomplished. I do not trust "independent" testing in a lot of cases because typically the scope of the test is too narrow to be of much value, since it will only apply to a limited case/application. Assembly lubes are thick because of the need to maintain lubrication inside the engine in the case that the new oil system doesn't prime initially, or there is a delay in the oil pressure coming. All my assembly manuals have you run the engine for a short time, drop the oil out, change the filter to remove that assembly lube to prevent engine clogging, and then refill and run the engine for approx 50 miles or 10 hours of use and change again. This gets the additional metal out that gets shaved off parts as they seat themselves, hopefully not much. We are still running auto engines, and just like our previous discussion on oils, need to run what is appropriate for an auto engine, not aviation oils. Aviation oils are designed to both handle the particulars of those engines as well as deal with the much greater internal clearances that those engines have. Mark Jones' post shows the breakdown of the design of the oil he is using, and a review of the chart shows that his 15W40 has the ability to handle -33F temps, the 10W30 will go down to -40F. Thank you for that post Mark. This is what I was trying to illustrate. This looks like a very good "designer" oil for use since it covers a very broad range of oil temps and use, and does include that it is designed for both gasoline and diesel engines. The detergents in it for use with diesel engines should also help with the lead of 100LL that it will be exposed to also. Thanks again Mark. This will be my oil of choice as well after break-in. Colin crainey1@cfl.rr.com http://kr-builder.org/Colin/index.html KR2(td) N96TA Sanford, FL Apex Lending, Inc. 407-323-6960 (p) 407-557-3260 (f) crainey@apexlending.com ------------------------------ Message: 18 Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 15:20:14 -0400 From: "Colin & Bev Rainey" Subject: KR> Capacity To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <00a101c549cb$cef727e0$c7432141@RaineyDay> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Again correct me if I am wrong but I believe the cam won't cause the foaming issue due to the lack of the counter balance weights. In all of the discussions from the automotive engineers I have read they always stated that this is the reason for it happening, that the crank weight have the flat edge going into the oil, and too much cause it not to just "glance" through it, but actually begin beating it like a blender, causing it to foam. Since this is not the case in the Corvair, it should be okay at the level you are speaking of, and Mark L confirms. This is good information for all the Corvair guys running stock pans (I know Bill Clapp is). Colin crainey1@cfl.rr.com http://kr-builder.org/Colin/index.html KR2(td) N96TA Sanford, FL Apex Lending, Inc. 407-323-6960 (p) 407-557-3260 (f) crainey@apexlending.com ------------------------------ Message: 19 Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 21:06:31 +0200 From: "Dene Collett (SA)" Subject: Re: KR> wing ridgidity To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <005601c549cd$e65e7300$ea9eef9b@DeneCollett> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Thanks guys for the replies to my query, I think I will add a tape or two of carbon or uni glass around the end of the stub just to set my mind at ease. My worry is hitting an obstacle (mole hill,etc)on a rough strip and causing the gear leg to rely on the wing skin to transfer the backward force of the jolt from the rear spar to the forward spar without deforming the wing enough to "unplug" the gear tube from its pivot bearings at the WAF's. Regards Dene Collett South Africa KR2SRT builder mailto: dene.collett@telkomsa.net www.whisperaircraft.co.za ----- Original Message ----- From: Martindale Family To: KRnet Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 02:13 Subject: Re: KR> wing ridgidity > Hi Dean > > That sounds like a neat way to do it. > > My question is how do you get the wheels to finish up forward of the > main spar (assuming a tail dragger) after extension from wells located > between the spars? Do you somehow have the main tube running at an > angle between the > spars? > > Also, how far out is your pivot from the fuselage? I guess that having > it at > the ends of the stubs would allow the longest gear legs but then more > stub distance and leg length would promote more twist between the > spars which seems to be your concern. I think some uni-directional or > carbon fibre strap, especially across the bottom of the wing between > the pivot brackets wouldn't be a bad thing but I've no engineering > analysis to support that. > > >From vague memory, my TC has his gear legs hanging off an extension > >of the > tube you mention that goes through the centre of the main and stops in > the wing nose. His gear then folds up into the leading edge wing root > fillet which is enlarged to allow it, that is, his legs and wheels all > tuck away forward of the spar. > > I prefer your arrangement Dean but it would mean no stub fuel > tanks...hmmm > > John > > The Martindale Family > 29 Jane Circuit > TOORMINA NSW 2452 > AUSTRALIA > > phone: 61 2 66584767 > email: johnjanet@optusnet.com.au > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dene Collett (SA)" > To: "KRnet" > Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 6:27 AM > Subject: KR> wing ridgidity > > > > Since my retract gear is attached to a tube running between the > > front and > rear spars that locates in a self aligning bearing/bush at each end > much like the head of a rod end bearing which is attached by the WAF > bolts to the > spars, my question is: How ridgid is the wing with regard to the > distance between the two spars once the skin is laid up (Mark L style > skins)? > > For those that have seen the lancair 360 gear, mine is very similar where > it attaches to the wing spars which means that if the spars move > approx 1/2" > further apart, the gear will become "unplugged". My stubs are not yet > skinned and the rear spar is able to move forward and back with very little > effort. How much force would it take to cause the wing to "stretch" > once skinned and attached to the outer wing? > > I suppose I could put a wrap of uni-directional tape around the wing > > in > the area of the WAF's?? > > Regards > > Dene Collett > > South Africa > > KR2SRT builder > > mailto: dene.collett@telkomsa.net > > www.whisperaircraft.co.za _______________________________________ > > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > > _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ See KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html End of KRnet Digest, Vol 347, Issue 161 *************************************** ================================== ABC Amber Outlook Converter v4.20 Trial version ==================================