From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net To: John Bouyea Subject: KRnet Digest, Vol 347, Issue 200 Date: 5/18/2005 9:00:21 PM Send KRnet mailing list submissions to krnet@mylist.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mylist.net/listinfo/krnet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to krnet-request@mylist.net You can reach the person managing the list at krnet-owner@mylist.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of KRnet digest..." Today's Topics: 1. RE: I need some help with my Corvair motor mount (Steve Glover) 2. RE: I need some help with my Corvair motor mount - oops! (Steve Glover) 3. spinner bulkheads revisited (blindate@seark.net) 4. Re: spinner bulkheads revisited (Dan Heath) 5. Re: airflow (Jim Sellars) 6. Re: Project Update - Firewall (Mike Turner) 7. Re: fuel injection (Jim Sellars) 8. Fuel injection (Colin & Bev Rainey) 9. Neg post (Colin & Bev Rainey) 10. Re: Fuel injection (Jim Sellars) 11. Re: fuel injection (Orma) 12. Re: fuel injection (Kenneth B. Jones) 13. Re: fuel injection (Jim Sellars) 14. Gascolator (Colin & Bev Rainey) 15. RE: I need some help with my Corvair motor mount (Ray Fuenzalida) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 21:02:33 -0700 From: "Steve Glover" Subject: RE: KR> I need some help with my Corvair motor mount To: "KRnet" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Do you have William Wynnes conversion manual? THe drawings are in there. I don't have mine handy... Steve -----Original Message----- From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-bounces@mylist.net]On Behalf Of Cowgirl2fly@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 7:17 PM To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: KR> I need some help with my Corvair motor mount Greetings everyone I have been constructing my motor mount I have the tray all done However I'm having a difficult time figuring out the lenght of the tubes that attach to the tray and firewall. In the manual it appears the tubes from the top of the fire wall to the back of the tray are longer then the ones that run from the bottom of the fire wall to the back of the tray. Can anyone help me with the lenghts of these tubes Thank you for you assistance Patty Gettysburg PA _______________________________________ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 21:09:49 -0700 From: "Steve Glover" Subject: RE: KR> I need some help with my Corvair motor mount - oops! To: "KRnet" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sorry netters- mean't to go personal... Steve ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 23:13:51 -0500 (CDT) From: blindate@seark.net Subject: KR> spinner bulkheads revisited To: kr@seark.net, krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <1451.66.138.162.52.1116389631.squirrel@www.seark.net> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Update on my Avid/VW spinner install.I just had crow for supper.Kinda chewy but I don't mind sharing some with the net.Seems my opinion,screws optional on the front bulkhead was,well,wrong!After 5 hours of test flying,I noticed my vibration slowly returning.So slowly as to not even notice.Someone said the spinner wobbles.Yeah they all wobble a little.Now I notice a grove in the front of the cowl.At least a 1/4 inche from the spinner.Wonder how that happened?Still oblivious to the obvious,I taxi out for flight.I'm looking at my shadow on the ground and the spinner looks like it's wobbling Duh.Got out and looked sure enough probablly an inch out of round at idle.Just checked it.It felt secure but was actually flexing while running.Now there are 10-32 screws with nutplates on the front bulkhead.Tommy W. ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 04:36:55 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) From: "Dan Heath" Subject: Re: KR> spinner bulkheads revisited To: Message-ID: <428AFEA7.000011.03344@DANHOMECOMPUTER> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Tommy, I was told by one of the RV builders and pilots that you don't need screws on the front either. However, I had them on my first KR and never had a problem, so they will be on this one. Thanks for the post or I might have been tempted to take the other route. Only, I use 8-32 round head. See you in Mt. Vernon - 2005 - KR Gathering See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics There is a time for building and a time for FLYING and the time for building has expired. Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC -------Original Message------- Now there are 10-32 screws with nutplates on the front bulkhead. ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 07:20:24 -0300 From: "Jim Sellars" Subject: Re: KR> airflow To: , "KRnet" Message-ID: <00b001c55b93$37760a10$8785c345@jim> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Kevin: I tried to send the small box the other day with UPS. They rell me that they will not ship it until you have an account with them??? I left confused, thought they were in the business, Call them and arrange an account so I can send the box OK? Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Jarvis" To: Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 7:53 PM Subject: KR> airflow > Greetings all, > > Some time back I ran across a web site that discussed smooth airflow, > boundary layer separation and the likes. Cowlings and canopies were > discussed and one of the examples happened to show the airflow around > and through a scoop like the radiator housing for a P-51. The > discussion was not about the scoop but the diagrams showed this > profile and included an explanation about what happened due to the > shape. It was a 2 dimensional colored drawing. > > I have looked for a week now and can't find it again. Does anyone > recall seeing this and can you point me to it ? > > Thanks > Kevin > N4 10WA > > > > _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 11:13:15 -0500 From: "Mike Turner" Subject: Re: KR> Project Update - Firewall To: "KRnet" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Dan, looking at your firewall insulation it appears you used a plumber's shrink tape for all of your fuel fittings? Mike Turner, Jackson, Missouri ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan Heath Subject: KR> Project Update - Firewall I put together a little presentation on the work that I have been doing on the firewall. CLICK HERE. They are the first 8 pics, then click on the pic. http://kr-builder.org/FirewallForward/index.html ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 13:47:23 -0300 From: "Jim Sellars" Subject: Re: KR> fuel injection To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <005401c55bc9$44752850$6401a8c0@laptop> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Fellows: Need some advice about routing fuel lines. I have a fuel injection system and have run the pressure relief side of the system back into the top of my gasalator. This is normally where the priming system comes from I believe. Does this have a potential of forcing fuel back to my gas tank and therefore giving intermittent fuel flow to the pump and fuel rail? I would run a line from the relief back to the header tank if necessary but it will run quite well on the ground as is. But it sure could be making bubbles I suppose!! Any thoughts appreciated. Best regards Jim ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 13:49:01 -0400 From: "Colin & Bev Rainey" Subject: KR> Fuel injection To: Message-ID: <008301c55bd1$e070d2b0$c7432141@RaineyDay> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Jim and netters This is why I have said that if you are not familiar you really need to get schooling on why things are done the way they are in fuel injection different from carbs. The return line from the pressure regulator side MUST return to the fuel tank, below or at the pickup point (fuel level) to allow proper recirculation so that the fuel pump which is also cooled by the fuel it is pumping can be prevented from over heating and short life, and to prevent aeration of the fuel (bubbling). Typically the fuel pumps required to make a fuel injection system work properly must pump alot more volume and pressure and get MUCH hotter internally than carb pumps do, and is why so many manufacturers went to installing them inside the fuel tanks. The fuel acts to cool the pumps along with a constant recirculation and the pump is always primed being immersed in fuel (unless you are out). Your system is providing a circulation loop, but will tend to send fuel both ways in your lines, potentially starving the system under acceleration. Look at ALL systems on cars and light trucks; they all recirculate back to the tank. Ford trucks went through a huge problem with their multi tank system, where the checking valve that was supposed to keep the fuel coming from the correct tank would malfunction causing the fuel to be pumped back into the other tank, instead of to the engine. Positive selection, individual check valves, and proper line organization are just some of the considerations. Colin Sanford, FL Ordered almost all support parts from Clarks Corvairs for the KRvair engine this morning. Sights are set on a mid June fire up! ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 14:32:50 -0400 From: "Colin & Bev Rainey" Subject: KR> Neg post To: Message-ID: <00a301c55bd7$ff1f1310$c7432141@RaineyDay> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Jim and netters After reading my own post, I wanted both Jim and the other netters to not feel that my post was negative or meant to be a flaming or slam dunk. It was not. I merely wanted to point out that it is impossible for this group to completely supplement a builder with little or no back ground in a field with all he needs to safely complete a job or installation. Not seeing the setup first hand, and following it all the way through, all the unseen things become a potential for problems. There are so many components in most systems that it is easy to make an assumption that this part is standard, or that setup is done standard, and it would not be so. I will be the first to say that fuel injection is a wonderful thing for engines, and their performance. My fear for builders is the fact that for years I watched people who were "mechanics" screw up fuel injections systems because they would do things that they thought would be okay, without realizing the consequences. A car on fire on the side of the road or broken down on the shoulder is bad enough; but a poorly engineered conversion due to lack of knowledge or poor choice of materials/setup in an airplane is a death trap. We all no there is no shoulder to pull off onto. PLEASE make sure that the proper research is done, and if at all possible get a REAL performance mechanic (not a hot rod wanna be) to shadow your installation. Also, no offense to any, but A&P's that do not have auto injection system exposure and background are also worthless because the two styles of engineering and setup are TOTALLY different and will only cause you to induce new problems, that the car guys have long since cured. Stick to consulting with performance auto people for advice and know how. Colin KSFB ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 15:35:10 -0300 From: "Jim Sellars" Subject: Re: KR> Fuel injection To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <006d01c55bd8$52ef1170$6401a8c0@laptop> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Thanks Colin: Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Colin & Bev Rainey" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 2:49 PM Subject: KR> Fuel injection > Jim and netters > This is why I have said that if you are not familiar you really need > to > get schooling on why things are done the way they are in fuel injection > different from carbs. > > The return line from the pressure regulator side MUST return to the > fuel > tank, below or at the pickup point (fuel level) to allow proper > recirculation so that the fuel pump which is also cooled by the fuel it is > pumping can be prevented from over heating and short life, and to prevent > aeration of the fuel (bubbling). Typically the fuel pumps required to make > a fuel injection system work properly must pump alot more volume and > pressure and get MUCH hotter internally than carb pumps do, and is why so > many manufacturers went to installing them inside the fuel tanks. The fuel > acts to cool the pumps along with a constant recirculation and the pump is > always primed being immersed in fuel (unless you are out). > > Your system is providing a circulation loop, but will tend to send > fuel > both ways in your lines, potentially starving the system under > acceleration. Look at ALL systems on cars and light trucks; they all > recirculate back to the tank. Ford trucks went through a huge problem with > their multi tank system, where the checking valve that was supposed to > keep the fuel coming from the correct tank would malfunction causing the > fuel to be pumped back into the other tank, instead of to the engine. > Positive selection, individual check valves, and proper line organization > are just some of the considerations. > > Colin > Sanford, FL > > Ordered almost all support parts from Clarks Corvairs for the KRvair > engine this morning. Sights are set on a mid June fire up! > _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 18:07:57 -0400 From: "Orma" Subject: Re: KR> fuel injection To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <003201c55bf6$0d6432c0$0302a8c0@ROBBINS1> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Hello Jim Besides all the thing that Colin shared with you, the gasolator is never used in a pressure setting. My experience tells me that they are always a hair away from leaking at the best of times and would probably leak under the pressure of the return supply during a closed throttle condition and likely cause a fire. Orma L. Robbiins AP/IA Southfield, MI N110LR Tweety, old enough to drink this year Flying and more flying, to the gathering or bust http://www.kr-2.aviation-mechanics.com/ ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 18:47:39 -0400 From: "Kenneth B. Jones" Subject: Re: KR> fuel injection To: "Jim Sellars" , "KRnet" Message-ID: <01f301c55bfb$98e5e7d0$8d7ba8c0@oemcomputer> Jim, I am building another plane (other than KR-2) which uses a fuel injected aircraft engine. The plane has two tanks. The returned fuel is switched by the fuel valve (separate circuit from supply) so as to return to the fuel tank that is currently supplying fuel. The fuel that is returned is introduced into the tank adjacent to the fuel vent, that is to say at the highest point in the tank. This is per the aircraft design. Ken Jones, kenbjones@cinci.rr.com Sharonville, OH 85 hours and a fresh condition inspection on N5834, aka The Porkopolis Flying Pig ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Sellars" To: "KRnet" Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 12:47 PM Subject: Re: KR> fuel injection > Fellows: > Need some advice about routing fuel lines. I have a fuel injection > system and have run the pressure relief side of the system back into the > top > of my gasalator. This is normally where the priming system comes from I > believe. > Does this have a potential of forcing fuel back to my gas tank and > therefore giving intermittent fuel flow to the pump and fuel rail? I > would > run a line from the relief back to the header tank if necessary but it > will > run quite well on the ground as is. But it sure could be making bubbles I > suppose!! > Any thoughts appreciated. > Best regards > Jim > > > _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 19:51:13 -0300 From: "Jim Sellars" Subject: Re: KR> fuel injection To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <003d01c55bfc$181dcea0$8785c345@jim> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Orma: Can I use the gasolator as the low point in the fuel supply and have a return to the tank, that is seperate from the gasolator? What do you think? That would have the gasolator at the low point, then the high pressure pump, to the fuel rail, then the return directly back to the fuel tank. That sounds better to me. Can I just close off that fitting on the top of the gasolator with a plug, since I will not be using a primer? PS thanks for the help. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Orma" To: "KRnet" Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 7:07 PM Subject: Re: KR> fuel injection > Hello Jim > > Besides all the thing that Colin shared with you, the gasolator is never > used in a pressure setting. My experience tells me that they are always a > hair away from leaking at the best of times and would probably leak under > the pressure of the return supply during a closed throttle condition and > likely cause a fire. > > Orma L. Robbiins > AP/IA > Southfield, MI > N110LR Tweety, old enough to drink this year > Flying and more flying, to the gathering or bust > http://www.kr-2.aviation-mechanics.com/ > > > > _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 19:14:42 -0400 From: "Colin & Bev Rainey" Subject: KR> Gascolator To: Message-ID: <011001c55bff$7a34dcc0$c7432141@RaineyDay> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Jim That is exactly how Vans sells his gascolator and furnishes the builder with a plug if no primer is desired or used. Ken, a low pressure fuel injection system like aircraft uses can have the fuel dump above the fuel level. You cannot use this method with high pressure, high volume recirculation due to the foaming of the fuel that will result. This is a prime example of how different auto vs. aircraft fuel injection is. The gallons per hour that are recirculated to the tank alone are more than twice what the total capacity of delivery that the aircraft system can even make. They are apples to oranges! Do not compare them as being close to the same. They are not. Auto systems use electronic injectors that spray fuel on command, while aircraft use a less efficient, but simpler spray nozzle like a diesel uses. The auto system requires more pressure and the ability to restrict that pressure more during acceleration with a pressure regulator that is vacuum controlled. This is just the beginning. Jim, install a return in the tank that makes the fuel enter below the fuel level. If you want, add a tube that extends into the tank from the top, and bends and lays on the bottom of the tank, so that recirculated fuel does not cause foaming. Otherwise she will run perfect until the fuel demand uses up all liquid fuel and then it will be foam. I would hate for this to happen on climbout, or when it really mattered! Go to a junk yard and look at an in tank assembly and you will see the pickup screen on the end of the fuel pump, and right next to it is the nozzle for the return line, emptying back into the tank. Colin KSFB ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 20:50:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Ray Fuenzalida Subject: RE: KR> I need some help with my Corvair motor mount To: KRnet Message-ID: <20050519035008.91055.qmail@web31511.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I have to add here that there are no specific lengths (that I see) in my manual. I don't know how long to make the pieces. I did email WW and he told me to order 5' of the 3/4 .049 square tubing and 10' of the 3/4 .049 round tubing but that is all he told me. I showed the drawing to my welder and he said he could make them up even without measurements. he will make the tray (easy enough) and then fit it to my firewall. So, it may be an inch or so off from whatever yours turns out to be. I don't like the inexactness of this method but the welder assures me that it is no problem. I ordered my steel from Aircraft Spruce just today. Ray New Orleans --- Steve Glover wrote: > Do you have William Wynnes conversion manual? THe > drawings are in there. I > don't have mine handy... > > Steve > > -----Original Message----- > From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net > [mailto:krnet-bounces@mylist.net]On > Behalf Of Cowgirl2fly@aol.com > Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 7:17 PM > To: krnet@mylist.net > Subject: KR> I need some help with my Corvair motor > mount > > > Greetings everyone > > I have been constructing my motor mount I have the > tray all done However I'm > having a difficult time figuring out the lenght of > the tubes that attach to > the tray and firewall. In the manual it appears the > tubes from the top of > the > fire wall to the back of the tray are longer then > the ones that run from the > bottom of the fire wall to the back of the tray. Can > anyone help me with the > lenghts of these tubes > > Thank you for you assistance > > Patty > Gettysburg PA > _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at > http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to > KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at > http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > > > _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at > http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to > KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at > http://www.krnet.org/info.html > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ See KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html End of KRnet Digest, Vol 347, Issue 200 *************************************** ================================== ABC Amber Outlook Converter v4.20 Trial version ==================================