From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net To: John Bouyea Subject: KRnet Digest, Vol 347, Issue 415 Date: 10/18/2005 11:13:32 AM Send KRnet mailing list submissions to krnet@mylist.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mylist.net/listinfo/krnet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to krnet-request@mylist.net You can reach the person managing the list at krnet-owner@mylist.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of KRnet digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Eggenfellner engines (3343V) 2. For Steve (Ron Smith) 3. Sorry forgot to give the author of the poem (Ron Smith) 4. Tail Wheel (Dan Heath) 5. Re: Eggenfellner engines (Scott William) 6. Re: For Steve (Frank Ross) 7. RE: Engine Ads (Stephen Teate) 8. Re: Steve Jones - Obituary (Kenneth B. Jones) 9. RE: Engine Ads (Scott William) 10. Engines, postings, and things... (Scott William) 11. Re: For Steve (Robert L. Stone) 12. Re: Eggenfellner engines (Robert L. Stone) 13. Re: Eggenfellner engines (Scott William) 14. starting wars (Don Chisholm) 15. Re: Tail Wheel (Charles Buddy & Cheryl Midkiff) 16. Covering material (Ron Butterfield) 17. Re: Steve Jones - Obituary (Joachim Saupe) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 02:34:40 -0500 From: "3343V" <3343v@swbell.net> Subject: Re: KR> Eggenfellner engines To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <045501c5d3b6$69370810$0c00a8c0@Katana> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Dan Michaels wrote: > I have researched this, and the 6 cylinder subaru is an horozontally > opposed engine same as a Lycoming. It was designed by subaru for an > aircraft. The aircraft did not take off financially so they addapted > the engine for a car. Eggenfellner then converted it to an aircraft > engine. This is not the same as the 4 cylinder Subaru engine that they > used to use. Is that the SVX engine? A while back I was thinking it might be a good airplane engine. I still think I'll be sticking with an O-200, though. -- Steve 3343v@swbell.net N3343V- '75 C150M N205FT- KR1 #6170 He who seeks will find, and he who knocks will be let in. ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 00:49:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Ron Smith Subject: KR> For Steve To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <20051018074949.75652.qmail@web81707.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 I'm sure many have read this poem. It never gets old for me. Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of Earth And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings; Sunward I've climbed and joined the tumbling mirth of sun-split clouds,--and done a hundred things You have not dreamed of wheeled and soared and swung High in the sunlit silence. Hov'ring there, I've chased the shouting wind along, and flung My eager craft through footless falls of air... Up, up the long, delirious, burning blue I've topped the wind-swept heights with easy grace Where never lark, nor eer eagle flew-- And, while with silent lifting mind I've trod The high, untrespassed sanctity of space, Put out my hand and touched the face of God. Millions of humans have longed to fly, it is we lucky few who have, and do. Godspeed Steve. ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 00:56:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Ron Smith Subject: KR> Sorry forgot to give the author of the poem To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <20051018075637.79446.qmail@web81703.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 His name was John Gillespie. Ron Smith Kr2ssxl Cypress Ca U.S.A. mercedesmann@yahoo.com http://ronsmith.myphotoalbum.com/albums.php ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 05:50:31 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) From: "Dan Heath" Subject: KR> Tail Wheel To: Message-ID: <4354C567.000011.01084@DANHOMECOMPUTER> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" For you guys who have converted to the tri-gear from a conventional, do you still have the original tail wheel and does it need a new home? DanRH@AllTel.net Thanks, See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics See you in Mt. Vernon - 2006 - KR Gathering There is a time for building and a time for FLYING and the time for building is over. Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 05:05:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Scott William Subject: Re: KR> Eggenfellner engines To: KRnet Message-ID: <20051018120514.77288.qmail@web31507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 I'd sure like to see your research and sources. Subaru stopped producing aircraft after WW2 when it became the Fuji Sangyo Co. Since then, it has concentrated on rally cars and associated races. (Fast forward) In 1987, Subaru introduced the XT6 model as a 1988 model with the 145 hp 2.7 L flat-six ER27. The SVX engine/model debuted in 1991, targeting the luxury segment, hence the larger engine. The engine specs are as follows: Bore x stroke : 96.9mm x 75.0mm Engine displacement : 3,318cc Compression ratio : 10.0 Max. output (hp/rpm) : 230/5,400 Max. torque (ft/lb-m/rpm) : 228/4,400 Those specs are not that of an aircraft engine. Those specs clearly show that it produces torque very high in the RPM range, too high for a prop. The only way this thing was ever an aircraft engine is if the stroke was longer, the camshaft different, and the intake ports much smaller. The SVX's EG33 engine was an indirect development of the 2.7 L ER27 flat-6 from the XT6, expanded to 3,318 cc (96.9 mm bore by 75 mm stroke) and equipped with dual overhead camshafts and 4 valves per cylinder. An increase in compression ratio to 10.0:1 brought power to 230 hp (172 kW) at 5,400 rpm and torque to 228 ft.lbf (309 Nm) at 4,400 rpm. If you have better information, I'd love to see it....and your sources for it. Scott --- Dan Michaels wrote: > I have researched this, and the 6 cylinder subaru is > an horozontally opposed > engine same as a Lycoming. It was designed by subaru > for an aircraft. The > aircraft did not take off financially so they > addapted the engine for a car. > Eggenfellner then converted it to an aircraft > engine. This is not the same > as the 4 cylinder Subaru engine that they used to > use. > > Dan > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Scott William" > To: "KRnet" > Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 7:37 PM > Subject: Re: KR> Eggenfellner engines > > > > Dan: > > There's a reason Eggenfellner calls them > > "conversions". They weren't designed to > fly....now or > > ever. > > > > Scott > > > > --- Dan Michaels > wrote: > > > >> The newest Subaru engine that they are using is > an > >> aircraft engine, it was > >> designed for this purpose the plane just did not > >> take off. They then put it > >> in a car. > >> > >> Dan > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Scott William" > >> To: ; "KRnet" > >> > >> Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 6:23 AM > >> Subject: Re: KR> Eggenfellner engines > >> > >> > >> > Can I simplify this? > >> > > >> > Auto engines are engineered to spend 80% of > thier > >> life > >> > at 20% throttle. > >> > > >> > > >> > Airplane engines are engineered to spend 80% of > >> thier > >> > life at 85% throttle. > >> > > >> > > >> > See the difference? > >> > > >> > Now, some auto engines have inherent design charachteristics that > >> > bode them well in > airplanes. > >> The > >> > Corvair is one that is superb. As mentioned > below, > >> the > >> > 2100 VW with a good forged steel crank is a > good > >> > choice, as is the V6 GM motor. > >> > > >> > As for all the others.....look how they perform > in > >> > boats. They don't last long because of the > large > >> power > >> > requirements on them. Hence, you'll never see a > >> two > >> > bolt main Chevy 350 in a boat. Or a Subaru, for > >> that > >> > matter. > >> > > >> > > >> > Scott > >> > > >> > --- Colin Rainey > > >> > wrote: > >> > > >> >> Bob Lester at one time ran a Subaru engine > before > >> >> changing over to a Corvair. Problems with the crankshafts due to > >> >> the high rpms necessary to produce enough power. Read the Auto > >> >> Mathbook > for > >> >> some numbers of projected life expectancy when > >> >> engines are subjected to higher and higher > rpms. > >> >> The Chevy 350 is 3.48 inches in stroke and > will > >> >> reach a piston speed that at 6500 rpms will > >> stress > >> >> the crank 4 times what it is at 5500 rpms per > the > >> >> author of the book. Yet by de-stroking that > same > >> >> engine as in the Indy cars, it can be revved > to > >> >> 11,500 and reach the same piston speeds as > 6000 > >> >> rpms, bringing the same stress to the crank. > You > >> >> must do the same things to your chosen engine, > OR > >> >> use an engine that develops more HP than you > >> need, > >> >> so that your rpms can be maintained at a > >> reasonable > >> >> level for longevity. The chosen engine needs > to > >> >> have a broad power band where torque is good > >> where > >> >> you plan to cruise. Peak Hp does not matter > if > >> you > >> >> cannot stay there for long durations. Remember > >> about > >> >> takeoffs, climbs while in cruise flight. > etc... > >> >> > >> >> With the complexity with running a liquid > cooled > >> >> auto engine added to an already complex task > of > >> >> setting up an engine and then matching a prop > to > >> it, > >> >> the idea of getting reliable information > >> concerning > >> >> PSRUs and prop matches is nothing short of > >> daunting. > >> >> The Subarus are reputed to produce X amount > of > >> HP > >> >> but I was not impressed with their > presentation > >> nor > >> >> information, or lack there of at Sun n Fun, > from > >> the > >> >> Eggenfellner group. They seemed full of hipe > but > >> >> would not talk real world knowledge of their > >> >> products. Like REAL hours of use instead of > >> >> projected TBO. Their full rated HP falls WAY > off > >> >> when throttled back for economy cruise. For > all > >> the > >> >> added extras in complexity and weight, you are > >> >> better off with a good 2180 VW or Corvair > 2.7L. > >> The > >> >> three best auto engines I have researched that > >> are > >> >> successful conversions, being used > extensively, > >> with > >> >> LOTS of information available are: 1) the VW > >> 2180; > >> >> 2) the Corvair 2.7L ; 3) the 4.3V6 GM. By far > >> these > >> >> engines have way over the numbers of flying > >> >> conversions that stay in the planes and the > >> owners > >> >> express satisfaction with their performance. > The > >> >> others have smaller numbers, and have short > TBOs > >> >> like the 2 cycle Rotax family. > >> >> > >> >> IMHO I would recommend for our birds, stick > with > >> the > >> >> proven power plants and you will fly sooner, > be > >> >> happier, spend less money, and perform better > >> than > >> >> these other fancy boat anchors. (Ok maybe not > >> boat > >> >> anchor, but definitely tie down anchors ). > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Colin Rainey > >> >> brokerpilot96ta@earthlink.net > >> >> EarthLink Revolves Around You. > >> >> _______________________________________ > >> >> Search the KRnet Archives at > >> >> http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > >> >> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to > === message truncated === __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 06:37:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Frank Ross Subject: Re: KR> For Steve To: KRnet Message-ID: <20051018133710.30848.qmail@web32015.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 John Gillespie Magee, Jr was a 19y/o Spitfire pilot in the RCAF when he died after a collision with another plane over England, Dec 11, 1941. See: http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/history/prewwii/jgm.htm His poem is a very fine tribute to Steve. Frank Frank Ross, EAA Chapter 35, San Geronimo, TX RAF Lakenheath, Suffolk, England, UK Visit my photo album at: http://photos.yahoo.com/alamokr2 __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 09:23:53 -0500 From: "Stephen Teate" Subject: RE: KR> Engine Ads To: , "KRnet" Message-ID: <98DAC793BA09104DA961CAFAA33C7958080319@ccs-svr1.CCS.local> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" "Also something to keep in mind about Subaru engines that no one has mentioned yet is, most have timing belts. They are difficult to change due to the amount of engine assemblies that must be removed to get to it (less for the plane version). They are also INTERFERENCE engines. This means that when the belt breaks, you have valve damage for sure. A bad day got worse." Hello all! As this is my first post please excuse any procedural failings on my part. Let's talk engines. Several models of Subaru engines are interference engines. For those who don't know what that means, it is where the valve travel and piston travel overlap. Obviously a bad thing. Like I said, some models of Subaru engines are design this way. Mine is not. It is a 4 cylinder turbocharged/intercooled fuel-injected EA-82. This engine does use timing belts to operate the overhead valves but are external to the engine so inspection and replacement if necessary are easily accomplished. As for other engines, if you want to use an air cooled engine designed in the 30's and who's parts will require a second mortgage, or one that was designed in the late 50's and hasn't been in production for 35 to 40 years, or use a modern liquid cooled engine with it's added weight and perceived complexity, then do it. The point is there are issues with whatever engine you choose. Do your research, look at several sources, especially the ones that don't like your choice, take what any "engine builder" says with a large grain of salt and above all use common sense. Find out the problems with your engine choice, THEY ALL HAVE THEM, and take the steps necessary to minimize or eliminate them. Hope I wasn't to long winded, Stephen steate@compositecooling.com -----Original Message----- From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-bounces@mylist.net] On Behalf Of Colin Rainey Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 9:08 AM To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: KR> Engine Ads Netters need to be aware that alot of people talk about what their engine does in one statement when they are actually covering several different factors. People will advertise an economy of so many gallons an hour, while cruising at a high cruise speed. Then in practice actual builder/owners report the speed is achieved but not the economy at that speed. Example: a Corvair engine can cruise at 3 to 4 gallons an hour just like the VW, and can push the KR up to speeds of 150 to 180 mph. But to say it can cruise at 170 mph at 3 gallons an hour is not over exaggerating, it is a lie! It can do one, or the other but not both at the same time. My VW would use almost 3.5 gallons and hour all the time, due to restricted time in climb, and lots of time in cruise testing. But it never got over 140 mph, and would cruise at 125 mph. Talk to actual aircraft owners who are NOT selling their plane for accurate reports of the engine in question. Also something to keep in mind about Subaru engines that no one has mentioned yet is, most have timing belts. They are difficult to change due to the amount of engine assemblies that must be removed to get to it (less for the plane version). They are also INTERFERENCE engines. This means that when the belt breaks, you have valve damage for sure. A bad day got worse. The Corvair is gear drive, like the VW and the GM 4.3 V6 is chain drive. I could go on, but I think all see my point about doing your research and not getting sucked in to advertising. Remember, if it was such a Chariot/cream puff, why is he/she selling it! Also make sure that you check on the CONTINUOUS rated hp for the engine desired and its rpm, not just peak numbers. 2 cycles make good hp, but have to run in the top part of their designed rpms to make any significant hp at all. This will have a big impact on the PSRU/Prop you use. Pump gas is good, but remember it has alcohol in it which absorbs water. Also it will gum up a carb if left parked for extensive periods of time. I would suggest a diet of premium gas for regular running, but top up to park it on 100LL, and make sure that the 100LL is in the carb when at rest/parked, unless you are flying at least every 3 to 4 days. Otherwise, if it sits parked for a month or two due to personal scheduling, the carb is going to start getting this lacquer like brown/gold film in it from the pump gas, and you will have to re-build it prematurely. You will also periodically have to add a gas treatment to absorb any water that you do not get sumped off. Colin Rainey brokerpilot96ta@earthlink.net EarthLink Revolves Around You. _______________________________________ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:39:11 -0400 From: "Kenneth B. Jones" Subject: Re: KR> Steve Jones - Obituary To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <021d01c5d3f1$b4e060f0$8d7ba8c0@oemcomputer> http://www.newscoast.com/apps/pbcs.dll/dclassifieds?Dato=20051018&Kategori=OBITS&Class=30&Type=CAT0103&Lopenr=510180443&Selected=7 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Jones" To: "KR Net (E-mail)" Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 2:55 PM Subject: KR> Steve Jones > It is with great regret that this e-mail is being sent to the KR > family. I > have not seen this announced public ally here so I thought it would be > appropriate to link you to the actual news report. Here is the link: > http://www.newscoast.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051016/NEWS/510160311/1001/NEWS0105 ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 07:48:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Scott William Subject: RE: KR> Engine Ads To: KRnet Message-ID: <20051018144800.80762.qmail@web31506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 --- Stephen Teate wrote: >> > Hello all! As this is my first post please excuse > any procedural > failings on my part. Let's talk engines. Several > models of Subaru > engines are interference engines. For those who > don't know what that > means, it is where the valve travel and piston > travel overlap. Obviously > a bad thing. Like I said, some models of Subaru > engines are design this > way. Mine is not. It is a 4 cylinder > turbocharged/intercooled > fuel-injected EA-82. Here is a list of the newest powerplants by Subaru.... 1.8 used in Impreza - not interference 3.3 used in SVX - interference 3.0 6cyl in newer OB - interference 2.0 turbo in WRX - interference all 2.5 DOHC and SOHC (96-present) - interference all 2.2 - not interference > As for other engines, if you want to use an air > cooled engine designed > in the 30's and who's parts will require a second > mortgage, or one that > was designed in the late 50's and hasn't been in > production for 35 to 40 > years, That's a really interesting way to introduce yourself....by printing negative propaganda (read: your opinion) about widely used and reliable aircraft engines. The small block chevy came out of the 50's....does this mean that GM shouldn't be using it in cars built now? Reliable design, history of good data.....stop building them? > or use a modern liquid cooled engine with > it's added weight and > perceived complexity, then do it. Bwahahahahahaha!!!! So tell me Stephen, what is "modern" about an EA-82? It was produced in the early eighties (20 years ago) and was a derivative of an engine produced in the early 70's that can trace it's design back to the 60's. The EA-82 was a notorious rod-thrower. Ask anyone who used to own a Subaru Brat with the EA81. > The point is there > are issues with > whatever engine you choose. You are correct, but you did not have to make negative comments about all air-cooled aircraft engines to make your point. As experimental aircraft builders, we will all choose a powerplant that tickles our fancy, some even blazing new trails with powerplants never tried before. But to use the old argument that certified engines are dinosaurs......People will have a hard time taking you seriously. Scott __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 09:18:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Scott William Subject: KR> Engines, postings, and things... To: brokerpilot96ta@earthlink.net, KRnet Message-ID: <20051018161824.42775.qmail@web31507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 After reading Mark's post to me, it is apparent that some have been offended by things posted by me. I do hereby appologize to any that I have offended by my sometimes raucious writing style. I enjoy the many things members of this board share with others. I shall continue to read the many informative and well thought-out postings from the many members here, and refrain from posting for awhile. Again, I am sorry if I have offended anyone here. Scott __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:43:54 -0500 From: "Robert L. Stone" Subject: Re: KR> For Steve To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <002901c5d403$20b23ef0$5d817646@yourat5qgaac3z> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Hi Ron, You are right, this is the best aviation poem I have ever had the pleasure of reading and every time I read it, I get a lump in my throat. It was written by John Gillespie Mcgee, Jr. who called it "HIGH FLIGHT" And just think about the fact that man dreamed of flying like the birds for many years before two obscure bicycle mechanics from Dayton, Ohio made it happen. God bless the both of them and all aviators in the world. 1/2 of the wings of a 747 are longer than the first flight. Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx rstone4@hot.rr.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Smith" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 2:49 AM Subject: KR> For Steve > I'm sure many have read this poem. It never gets old > for me. > > > Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of Earth > And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings; > Sunward I've climbed and joined the tumbling mirth of sun-split > clouds,--and done a hundred things You have not dreamed of wheeled and > soared and swung High in the sunlit silence. Hov'ring there, > I've chased the shouting wind along, and flung > My eager craft through footless falls of air... > Up, up the long, delirious, burning blue > I've topped the wind-swept heights with easy grace > Where never lark, nor eer eagle flew-- > And, while with silent lifting mind I've trod > The high, untrespassed sanctity of space, > Put out my hand and touched the face of God. > > > Millions of humans have longed to fly, it is we lucky > few who have, and do. > > Godspeed Steve. > > _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:59:20 -0500 From: "Robert L. Stone" Subject: Re: KR> Eggenfellner engines To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <005201c5d405$48ba96c0$5d817646@yourat5qgaac3z> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Hay guys, I did not intend for my question about the Eggenfellner engine to start a war so be nice to each other. Bob Stone ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott William" To: "KRnet" Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 7:05 AM Subject: Re: KR> Eggenfellner engines > I'd sure like to see your research and sources. Subaru stopped > producing aircraft after WW2 when it became the Fuji Sangyo Co. Since > then, it has concentrated on rally cars and associated races. > > (Fast forward) > > In 1987, Subaru introduced the XT6 model as a 1988 > model with the 145 hp 2.7 L flat-six ER27. > > > The SVX engine/model debuted in 1991, targeting the > luxury segment, hence the larger engine. The engine > specs are as follows: > Bore x stroke : 96.9mm x 75.0mm > Engine displacement : 3,318cc > Compression ratio : 10.0 > Max. output (hp/rpm) : 230/5,400 > Max. torque (ft/lb-m/rpm) : 228/4,400 > > Those specs are not that of an aircraft engine. Those > specs clearly show that it produces torque very high > in the RPM range, too high for a prop. The only way > this thing was ever an aircraft engine is if the > stroke was longer, the camshaft different, and the > intake ports much smaller. > > The SVX's EG33 engine was an indirect development of > the 2.7 L ER27 flat-6 from the XT6, expanded to 3,318 > cc (96.9 mm bore by 75 mm stroke) and equipped with > dual overhead camshafts and 4 valves per cylinder. An increase in > compression ratio to 10.0:1 brought power to 230 hp (172 kW) at 5,400 > rpm and torque to 228 ft.lbf (309 Nm) at 4,400 rpm. > > > If you have better information, I'd love to see > it....and your sources for it. > > Scott > > > --- Dan Michaels wrote: > >> I have researched this, and the 6 cylinder subaru is >> an horozontally opposed >> engine same as a Lycoming. It was designed by subaru >> for an aircraft. The >> aircraft did not take off financially so they >> addapted the engine for a car. >> Eggenfellner then converted it to an aircraft >> engine. This is not the same >> as the 4 cylinder Subaru engine that they used to >> use. >> >> Dan >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Scott William" >> To: "KRnet" >> Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 7:37 PM >> Subject: Re: KR> Eggenfellner engines >> >> >> > Dan: >> > There's a reason Eggenfellner calls them >> > "conversions". They weren't designed to >> fly....now or >> > ever. >> > >> > Scott >> > >> > --- Dan Michaels >> wrote: >> > >> >> The newest Subaru engine that they are using is >> an >> >> aircraft engine, it was >> >> designed for this purpose the plane just did not >> >> take off. They then put it >> >> in a car. >> >> >> >> Dan >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "Scott William" >> >> To: ; "KRnet" >> >> >> >> Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 6:23 AM >> >> Subject: Re: KR> Eggenfellner engines >> >> >> >> >> >> > Can I simplify this? >> >> > >> >> > Auto engines are engineered to spend 80% of >> thier >> >> life >> >> > at 20% throttle. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Airplane engines are engineered to spend 80% of >> >> thier >> >> > life at 85% throttle. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > See the difference? >> >> > >> >> > Now, some auto engines have inherent design charachteristics >> >> > that bode them well in >> airplanes. >> >> The >> >> > Corvair is one that is superb. As mentioned >> below, >> >> the >> >> > 2100 VW with a good forged steel crank is a >> good >> >> > choice, as is the V6 GM motor. >> >> > >> >> > As for all the others.....look how they perform >> in >> >> > boats. They don't last long because of the >> large >> >> power >> >> > requirements on them. Hence, you'll never see a >> >> two >> >> > bolt main Chevy 350 in a boat. Or a Subaru, for >> >> that >> >> > matter. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Scott >> >> > >> >> > --- Colin Rainey >> >> >> > wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> Bob Lester at one time ran a Subaru engine >> before >> >> >> changing over to a Corvair. Problems with the crankshafts due >> >> >> to the high rpms necessary to produce enough power. Read the >> >> >> Auto Mathbook >> for >> >> >> some numbers of projected life expectancy when >> >> >> engines are subjected to higher and higher >> rpms. >> >> >> The Chevy 350 is 3.48 inches in stroke and >> will >> >> >> reach a piston speed that at 6500 rpms will >> >> stress >> >> >> the crank 4 times what it is at 5500 rpms per >> the >> >> >> author of the book. Yet by de-stroking that >> same >> >> >> engine as in the Indy cars, it can be revved >> to >> >> >> 11,500 and reach the same piston speeds as >> 6000 >> >> >> rpms, bringing the same stress to the crank. >> You >> >> >> must do the same things to your chosen engine, >> OR >> >> >> use an engine that develops more HP than you >> >> need, >> >> >> so that your rpms can be maintained at a >> >> reasonable >> >> >> level for longevity. The chosen engine needs >> to >> >> >> have a broad power band where torque is good >> >> where >> >> >> you plan to cruise. Peak Hp does not matter >> if >> >> you >> >> >> cannot stay there for long durations. Remember >> >> about >> >> >> takeoffs, climbs while in cruise flight. >> etc... >> >> >> >> >> >> With the complexity with running a liquid >> cooled >> >> >> auto engine added to an already complex task >> of >> >> >> setting up an engine and then matching a prop >> to >> >> it, >> >> >> the idea of getting reliable information >> >> concerning >> >> >> PSRUs and prop matches is nothing short of >> >> daunting. >> >> >> The Subarus are reputed to produce X amount >> of >> >> HP >> >> >> but I was not impressed with their >> presentation >> >> nor >> >> >> information, or lack there of at Sun n Fun, >> from >> >> the >> >> >> Eggenfellner group. They seemed full of hipe >> but >> >> >> would not talk real world knowledge of their >> >> >> products. Like REAL hours of use instead of >> >> >> projected TBO. Their full rated HP falls WAY >> off >> >> >> when throttled back for economy cruise. For >> all >> >> the >> >> >> added extras in complexity and weight, you are >> >> >> better off with a good 2180 VW or Corvair >> 2.7L. >> >> The >> >> >> three best auto engines I have researched that >> >> are >> >> >> successful conversions, being used >> extensively, >> >> with >> >> >> LOTS of information available are: 1) the VW >> >> 2180; >> >> >> 2) the Corvair 2.7L ; 3) the 4.3V6 GM. By far >> >> these >> >> >> engines have way over the numbers of flying conversions that >> >> >> stay in the planes and the >> >> owners >> >> >> express satisfaction with their performance. >> The >> >> >> others have smaller numbers, and have short >> TBOs >> >> >> like the 2 cycle Rotax family. >> >> >> >> >> >> IMHO I would recommend for our birds, stick >> with >> >> the >> >> >> proven power plants and you will fly sooner, >> be >> >> >> happier, spend less money, and perform better >> >> than >> >> >> these other fancy boat anchors. (Ok maybe not >> >> boat >> >> >> anchor, but definitely tie down anchors ). >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Colin Rainey >> >> >> brokerpilot96ta@earthlink.net >> >> >> EarthLink Revolves Around You. >> >> >> _______________________________________ >> >> >> Search the KRnet Archives at >> >> >> http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp >> >> >> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to >> > === message truncated === > > > > > > __________________________________ > Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:46:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Scott William Subject: Re: KR> Eggenfellner engines To: KRnet Message-ID: <20051018174652.14633.qmail@web31511.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 If anybody started a war, it was me, and I am sorry for that. I shall shut up now. Scott --- "Robert L. Stone" wrote: > Hay guys, > I did not intend for my question about the > Eggenfellner engine to start > a war so be nice to each other. > > Bob Stone > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Scott William" > To: "KRnet" > Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 7:05 AM > Subject: Re: KR> Eggenfellner engines > > > > I'd sure like to see your research and sources. > Subaru > > stopped producing aircraft after WW2 when it > became > > the Fuji Sangyo Co. Since then, it has > concentrated > > on rally cars and associated races. > > > > (Fast forward) > > > > In 1987, Subaru introduced the XT6 model as a 1988 > > model with the 145 hp 2.7 L flat-six ER27. > > > > > > The SVX engine/model debuted in 1991, targeting > the > > luxury segment, hence the larger engine. The > engine > > specs are as follows: > > Bore x stroke : 96.9mm x 75.0mm > > Engine displacement : 3,318cc > > Compression ratio : 10.0 > > Max. output (hp/rpm) : 230/5,400 > > Max. torque (ft/lb-m/rpm) : 228/4,400 > > > > Those specs are not that of an aircraft engine. > Those > > specs clearly show that it produces torque very > high > > in the RPM range, too high for a prop. The only > way > > this thing was ever an aircraft engine is if the > > stroke was longer, the camshaft different, and the > > intake ports much smaller. > > > > The SVX's EG33 engine was an indirect development > of > > the 2.7 L ER27 flat-6 from the XT6, expanded to > 3,318 > > cc (96.9 mm bore by 75 mm stroke) and equipped > with > > dual overhead camshafts and 4 valves per cylinder. > An > > increase in compression ratio to 10.0:1 brought > power > > to 230 hp (172 kW) at 5,400 rpm and torque to 228 > > ft.lbf (309 Nm) at 4,400 rpm. > > > > > > If you have better information, I'd love to see > > it....and your sources for it. > > > > Scott > > > > > > --- Dan Michaels > wrote: > > > >> I have researched this, and the 6 cylinder subaru > is > >> an horozontally opposed > >> engine same as a Lycoming. It was designed by > subaru > >> for an aircraft. The > >> aircraft did not take off financially so they > >> addapted the engine for a car. > >> Eggenfellner then converted it to an aircraft > >> engine. This is not the same > >> as the 4 cylinder Subaru engine that they used to > >> use. > >> > >> Dan > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Scott William" > >> To: "KRnet" > >> Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 7:37 PM > >> Subject: Re: KR> Eggenfellner engines > >> > >> > >> > Dan: > >> > There's a reason Eggenfellner calls them > >> > "conversions". They weren't designed to > >> fly....now or > >> > ever. > >> > > >> > Scott > >> > > >> > --- Dan Michaels > >> wrote: > >> > > >> >> The newest Subaru engine that they are using > is > >> an > >> >> aircraft engine, it was > >> >> designed for this purpose the plane just did > not > >> >> take off. They then put it > >> >> in a car. > >> >> > >> >> Dan > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> From: "Scott William" > >> >> To: ; "KRnet" > >> >> > >> >> Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 6:23 AM > >> >> Subject: Re: KR> Eggenfellner engines > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Can I simplify this? > >> >> > > >> >> > Auto engines are engineered to spend 80% of > >> thier > >> >> life > >> >> > at 20% throttle. > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > Airplane engines are engineered to spend 80% > of > >> >> thier > >> >> > life at 85% throttle. > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > See the difference? > >> >> > > >> >> > Now, some auto engines have inherent design charachteristics > >> >> > that bode them well in > >> airplanes. > >> >> The > >> >> > Corvair is one that is superb. As mentioned > >> below, > >> >> the > >> >> > 2100 VW with a good forged steel crank is a > >> good > >> >> > choice, as is the V6 GM motor. > >> >> > > >> >> > As for all the others.....look how they > perform > >> in > >> >> > boats. They don't last long because of the > >> large > >> >> power > >> >> > requirements on them. Hence, you'll never > see a > >> >> two > >> >> > bolt main Chevy 350 in a boat. Or a Subaru, > for > >> >> that > >> >> > matter. > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > Scott > >> >> > > >> >> > --- Colin Rainey > >> > >> >> > wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> >> Bob Lester at one time ran a Subaru engine > >> before > >> >> >> changing over to a Corvair. Problems with > the > >> >> >> crankshafts due to the high rpms necessary > to > >> >> >> produce enough power. Read the Auto > Mathbook > >> for > >> >> >> some numbers of projected life expectancy > when > >> >> >> engines are subjected to higher and higher > >> rpms. > >> >> >> The Chevy 350 is 3.48 inches in stroke and > >> will > >> >> >> reach a piston speed that at 6500 rpms will > >> >> stress > >> >> >> the crank 4 times what it is at 5500 rpms > per > >> the > >> >> >> author of the book. Yet by de-stroking > that > >> same > >> >> >> engine as in the Indy cars, it can be > revved > >> to > >> >> >> 11,500 and reach the same piston speeds as > >> 6000 > >> >> >> rpms, bringing the same stress to the > crank. > === message truncated === __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 13:53:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Don Chisholm Subject: KR> starting wars To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <20051018175306.76226.qmail@web88006.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 here's my 2 cents worth " maybe ' again. but these wars that get started seem to breath life into this on line repartee. I don't think anyone is really offended in the long run of it and it keeps this lively. My little foray about steel tube fuselages recently netted me some good info that put my project down the road just that much further. I think everyone is afraid of being wrong and coming off as being an idiot but I do my best learning from my mistakes and I think that goes for everyone. Sorry Mark Jones, we're brothers with a difference of opinion.no hard feelings? ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:57:57 -0700 From: "Charles Buddy & Cheryl Midkiff" Subject: Re: KR> Tail Wheel To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <007c01c5d40d$79606130$6601a8c0@BUDDY> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Dan, I have a new one around somewhere. I'll try to locate the box I put it in and get back to you. Bud Midkiff Lynnwood, WA email: c.midkiff@verizon.net my webpage: http://mysite.verizon.net/res18ums/index.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Heath" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 2:50 AM Subject: KR> Tail Wheel > For you guys who have converted to the tri-gear from a conventional, > do > you > still have the original tail wheel and does it need a new home? ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:13:51 -0400 From: Ron Butterfield Subject: KR> Covering material To: KRnet Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20051018141205.01e19130@pop.mebtel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed At 10:32 AM 10/16/05, Don wrote: >I'm an automotive upholsterer by trade and if you don't mind my 2 cents >worth my favorite material to use especially for canopy covers is a >material called Odyssey Soft Touch manufactured by MarChem Coated >Fabrics.Inc.. What it is is a light weight coated polyester that is >waterproof and breathable and has a synthetic felt backing so it's not >prone to chaffing plexi or paint and has a 5 year manufacturers >guarantee. I'm sure there are probably many places to get this, but here is one: www.sailrite.com If you download their pdf catalog, it is on page 72. $18.50/yd (5' wide) Regards, RonB ------------------------------ Message: 17 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 13:12:28 -0500 From: "Joachim Saupe" Subject: Re: KR> Steve Jones - Obituary To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <410-2200510218181228890@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Is anyone sending a card, e-card or other from the KR comunity? Joachim > [Original Message] > From: Kenneth B. Jones > To: KRnet > Date: 18.10.2005 09:39:31 > Subject: Re: KR> Steve Jones - Obituary > > http://www.newscoast.com/apps/pbcs.dll/dclassifieds?Dato=20051018&Kategori=O BITS&Class=30&Type=CAT0103&Lopenr=510180443&Selected=7 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mark Jones" > To: "KR Net (E-mail)" > Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 2:55 PM > Subject: KR> Steve Jones > > > > It is with great regret that this e-mail is being sent to the KR family. I > > have not seen this announced public ally here so I thought it would > > be > > appropriate to link you to the actual news report. Here is the link: > > http://www.newscoast.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051016/NEWS/510160311/ 1001/NEWS0105 > > > > > _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ See KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html End of KRnet Digest, Vol 347, Issue 415 *************************************** ================================== ABC Amber Outlook Converter v4.20 Trial version ==================================