From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net To: John Bouyea Subject: KRnet Digest, Vol 347, Issue 426 Date: 10/23/2005 10:43:12 AM Send KRnet mailing list submissions to krnet@mylist.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mylist.net/listinfo/krnet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to krnet-request@mylist.net You can reach the person managing the list at krnet-owner@mylist.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of KRnet digest..." Today's Topics: 1. KR2 GPH (Dan Michaels) 2. Re: battery had bulged (Martindale Family) 3. RE: KR2 GPH (Joachim Saupe) 4. Re: BRS (Frank Ross) 5. battery had bulged (Steve Jacobs) 6. Re: battery had bulged (Dan Heath) 7. Re: dragonfly canopies (AVLEC) 8. Re: battery had bulged (phil brookman) 9. RE: dragonfly canopies (Steve Jacobs) 10. Re: stripped down (Joseph H Horton) 11. Re: "Stick and Rudder" (Ed Janssen) 12. Re: Re: "Stick and Rudder" (Mark Langford) 13. Re: Re: "Stick and Rudder" (Mark Jones) 14. Overvoltage protection (w.higdon9604@comcast.net) 15. Overvoltage protection (JIM VANCE) 16. Re: measure and verify the actual CG location, prior to flying. (IFLYKRS@aol.com) 17. Re: Gear legs and belly-boards (IFLYKRS@aol.com) 18. Re: Overvoltage protection (w.higdon9604@comcast.net) 19. e-mail problems / landing a KR (flesner@midwest.net) 20. Re: Gear legs and belly-boards (VIRGIL N SALISBURY) 21. Re: Gear legs and belly-boards (flesner@midwest.net) 22. Re: Gear legs and belly-boards (Orma) 23. RE: Gear legs and belly-boards (Steve Glover) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 23:25:14 -0500 From: "Dan Michaels" Subject: KR> KR2 GPH To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <000e01c5d789$c6426aa0$fdedfea9@N32394> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I am reading in Kitplanes that the KR2 has a range of 1600 NM and holds 12 gallons of fuel. Ths breaks down to 133 MPG is this about the milage you are seeing in the KR2. Dan ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 15:12:15 +1000 From: "Martindale Family" Subject: Re: KR> battery had bulged To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <005801c5d790$5574af20$1fdf683a@martindale> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Geday Mark This is what happened to my battery also when the Kubota regulator failed (refer archives), I think as a result of overreving the dynamo. The Kubota dynamo revs should not exceed 4250. I then used a bigger pulley (about 4 1/2 inch dia) to slow it down and have had no further problems. I imagine the Deere is similiar. Hey, it could be worse.....at least your battery buffered your avionics. John The Martindale Family 29 Jane Circuit Toormina NSW 2452 Australia ph: 61 2 66 584767 email: johnjanet@optusnet.com.au ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Jones" To: "KRnet" Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 11:30 PM Subject: Re: KR> battery had bulged > The battery is a Power Sonic > http://www.portablepower.com/items/batteries/SLA/1/Powersonic/PS-12180/PS-12180NB/SL105/35L105S3 > PS-12180NB. This is a UPS (uninteruptable power supply) type battery > and is > optimized by a charge rate of 5.4A till it reaches 14.4 to 14.7 > volts. Once > fully charged this type of battery must have a charger that either > shuts itself down or goes into a float voltage mode. A float mode for > this battery > is a constant charge range of 13.8 to 13.8 volts continuously. When > held at > this voltage the battery will seek it's own current level and maintain > itself in a fully charged condition. I am running the John Deere > dynamo system and this system emits a continuous charge rate of 14.5 > volts. This extra voltage can not be tolerated by this UPS battery and > I speculate that > it heated the battery up causing the bulging of the side. There is a > possibility, under these circumstances that the battery case could > rupture/explode while in flight which would create unwanted > circumstances. I > promoted this as a good Sealed Lead Acid Battery to use in our > aircraft. I have now flight tested this battery and DO NOT recommend > it any longer. Mark > Langford, I suggest you remove yours and replace it as well as anyone > else who may have one. > > Mark Jones (N886MJ) > Wales, WI USA > E-mail me at flykr2s@wi.rr.com > Visit my KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at > http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dan Heath" > To: > Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 4:16 AM > Subject: KR> battery had bulged > > > > Mark, > > So, why do you suppose that your battery was Bulged? > > > > See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics See you > > in Mt. Vernon - 2006 - KR Gathering There is a time for building and > > a time for FLYING and the time for > building > > is over. > > Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC > > _______________________________________ > > Search the KRnet Archives at > > http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > > > _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 00:25:05 -0500 From: "Joachim Saupe" Subject: RE: KR> KR2 GPH To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <410-22005100235255718@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Dan, regard everything you read in absolutes as a myth. No two KRs are alike! I'm not a KR driver but 3-5 gallon per hour is realistic with 140-190 mph true airspeed.There you have it! Joachim > [Original Message] > From: Dan Michaels > To: KRnet > Date: 10/22/2005 11:25:49 PM > Subject: KR> KR2 GPH > > I am reading in Kitplanes that the KR2 has a range of 1600 NM and > holds 12 gallons of fuel. Ths breaks down to 133 MPG is this about the milage you are seeing in the KR2. > > Dan > _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 00:29:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Frank Ross Subject: Re: KR> BRS To: KRnet Message-ID: <20051023072901.81869.qmail@web32003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Here at the home of the 48th Fighter Wing, the "Liberty Wing", the base Librarian tells me the fighter pilots are not called Libertarians, but she's not sure why not. BTW, their planes don't have BRS, but they do, sort of. Frank --- VIRGIL N SALISBURY wrote: > LIBERTARIAN?? , Virg > Pot and Kettle situation! Frank Ross, EAA Chapter 35, San Geronimo, TX RAF Lakenheath, Suffolk, England, UK Visit my photo album at: http://photos.yahoo.com/alamokr2 __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 09:41:09 -0700 From: "Steve Jacobs" Subject: KR> battery had bulged To: "'KRnet'" Message-ID: <000001c5d7f0$b3f22180$1864a8c0@home> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" might look into a regulator that's a little smarter than the one I have now +++++++++++++++++ Like most things, battery design has its compromises - electrolyte (gel) volume, plate area, distance between plates etc. These parameters obviously effect size and weight for a given AH capacity and the often ignored cold cranking capacity (where relevant). Some batteries are designed to efficiently "store" energy that is received and delivered at modest (charge / discharge) rates - units designed for Solar and UPS applications generally fall in this category and are very effective provided they are not subjected to high charge / discharge rates. The acceptable charge rate (in this case) is more of a trickle charge, but certainly not much over C/10 and the acceptable discharge rate is adequate to deliver the full (stored) capacity over a period of time. Whereas we can control the charge rate and solve most of the battery damage type problems, cranking an engine is very demanding in terms of current draw, if the battery is not designed for this, its life will be short. Subjecting the battery to a higher (than spec) charge (or discharge?) rate is more likely to cause damage from overheating, than high temps in the general environment. Steve Zambia ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 05:04:57 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) From: "Dan Heath" Subject: Re: KR> battery had bulged To: Message-ID: <435B5239.000001.03768@DANHOMECOMPUTER> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" That's why he built it that way, so he could always have a project. LOL, but it is probably true. See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics See you in Mt. Vernon - 2006 - KR Gathering There is a time for building and a time for FLYING and the time for building is over. Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC -------Original Message------- From: Mark Jones Date: 10/22/05 21:06:43 To: KRnet Subject: Re: KR> battery had bulged It brought out > all the hangar hounds from around the airport for a look. "Field stripping" > makes maintenance pretty easy. See > http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/05102208m.jpg ... Mark Langford, > Huntsville, Alabama Now that looks more like a project airplane than a flying airplane. Mark Jones (N886MJ) Wales, WI USA E-mail me at flykr2s@wi.rr.com Visit my KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj _______________________________________ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 21:23:52 +0200 From: "AVLEC" Subject: Re: KR> dragonfly canopies To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <000001c5d7b5$64ba23a0$b2a6fea9@dene> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Guys Dart industries is a South African company and their canopies are supplied by another South African company by the name of "Acrylform" in Cape Town run by a chap by the name of Jan Diener (sp). I will be ordering one shortly and have been advised by Dart ind that I can expect to pay around ZAR1,950.00. The canopies for the Whisper motor glider are also made by him and look very good. Regards Dene Collett KR2S builder Freelance whisper assembler South Africa mailto: avlec@telkomsa.net ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Chisholm To: Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 4:39 PM Subject: KR> dragonfly canopies > who supplies Dart industries _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 10:50:29 +0100 From: "phil brookman" Subject: Re: KR> battery had bulged To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <004001c5d7b7$33c32060$73a51352@philljl2re6t9i> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 yes over voltage can cook other stuff too radio trans pon some ign systems i am just figuring a good way to protect my stuff p ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Jacobs" To: "'KRnet'" Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2005 5:41 PM Subject: KR> battery had bulged > might look into a regulator that's a little smarter than the one I > have now > > +++++++++++++++++ > > Like most things, battery design has its compromises - electrolyte > (gel) volume, plate area, distance between plates etc. These > parameters obviously effect size and weight for a given AH capacity > and the often ignored cold cranking capacity (where relevant). > > Some batteries are designed to efficiently "store" energy that is > received and delivered at modest (charge / discharge) rates - units > designed for Solar and UPS applications generally fall in this > category and are very effective provided they are not subjected to > high charge / discharge rates. The acceptable charge rate (in this > case) is more of a trickle charge, but certainly not much over C/10 > and the acceptable discharge rate is adequate to deliver the full > (stored) capacity over a period of time. > > Whereas we can control the charge rate and solve most of the battery > damage type problems, cranking an engine is very demanding in terms of > current draw, if the battery is not designed for this, its life will > be short. > > Subjecting the battery to a higher (than spec) charge (or discharge?) > rate is more likely to cause damage from overheating, than high temps > in the general environment. > > Steve > Zambia > > > > > _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.4/142 - Release Date: > 18/10/2005 > > ---------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 24470 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try www.SPAMfighter.com for free now! -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.4/142 - Release Date: 18/10/2005 ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 11:57:40 -0700 From: "Steve Jacobs" Subject: RE: KR> dragonfly canopies To: "'KRnet'" Message-ID: <000001c5d803$a5066b50$5a64a8c0@home> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" "Acrylform" in Cape Town run by a chap by the name of Jan Diener (sp). I will be ordering one shortly and have been advised by Dart ind that I can expect to pay around ZAR1,950.00. +++++++++++ Jan Dienaar produces superb quality, refitted my PA32 as well as a Baron with his tinted windows. I think he made Jaco's KR2S canopy and fitted it to the frame, so a good solution for home builders in SA or the general region, but not much help for anyone that needs to pay international airfreight. ZAR 1,950 equates to the same price as a Todd's Canopy, $300 to $350. Steve Zambia PS, he also makes a brilliant range of wheel pants at very good prices. ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 08:27:52 -0400 From: Joseph H Horton Subject: Re: KR>stripped down To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <20051023.082752.-551129.0.joe.kr2s.builder@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mark I know what you are really doing! Your going to add a upper wing to it and fly on nice days with an open cockpit. You can't fool me. ;-) Joe Horton, Coopersburg, Pa. joe.kr2s.builder@juno.com > > I basically stripped the whole top off of mine today, removing > cowling, > forward deck/canopy, and aft deck, so I can do some overdue > maintenance. > It's supposed to be crappy for the next few days, so it's a good > time for > that sort of thing. Little stuff like moving the static port > (again), > adding a fuel totalizer, making the fuel system totally redundant, > and > mounting the auxillary display to my panel for my laptop. It > brought out > all the hangar hounds from around the airport for a look. "Field > stripping" > makes maintenance pretty easy. See > http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/05102208m.jpg ... > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama > see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford email to > N56ML "at" hiwaay.net > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > > _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at > http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > se see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 07:56:58 -0500 From: ejanssen@chipsnet.com (Ed Janssen) Subject: KR> Re: "Stick and Rudder" To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <001101c5d7d1$40d0f560$9700a8c0@dad> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I recently bought a "used" hard copy of "Stick and Rudder" from Amazon. There was no tax or shipping charge either; and the book looks brand new. Best $8.35 I've spent lately. Ed Ed Janssen mailto:ejanssen@chipsnet.com ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 08:16:29 -0500 From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> Re: "Stick and Rudder" To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <056301c5d7d3$fac409b0$1202a8c0@1700xp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Ed Janssen wrote: > I recently bought a "used" hard copy of "Stick and Rudder" from > Amazon. I got a real kick out of where he talks about tri-gear as "the new safety gear" and says it's obvious that tail draggers will be obsolete in ten years. It was written in 1944, but it's stick the best book on the actual mechanics and physics of flying that I've seen by far... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford email to N56ML "at" hiwaay.net -------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 08:41:24 -0500 From: "Mark Jones" Subject: Re: KR> Re: "Stick and Rudder" To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <004d01c5d7d7$762e1840$6401a8c0@wi.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Langford" > > I got a real kick out of where he talks about tri-gear as "the new > safety gear" All the hype on tail draggers over the past few months is making me feel like a "red headed step child". Hmmmmmmmmm could my tri gear emerge as a tail dragger in the spring like a caterpillar emerging from a cocoon as a butterfly. Nahhhh, you guys need someone to pick on. I do have major plans for my plane over the next few months though while we are in the frozen months here. Mark Jones (N886MJ) Wales, WI USA E-mail me at flykr2s@wi.rr.com Visit my KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 13:56:05 +0000 From: w.higdon9604@comcast.net Subject: KR> Overvoltage protection To: KRnet Message-ID: <102320051356.16404.435B9675000728E7000040142200734830CBCFC0C702010B090708D299@comcast.net> Phil, This is a issue with a lot of electronics, and there are "Standard" designs for protecting the desired items. Check out http://www.radio-electronics.com/info/circuits/scr_overvoltage_crowbar/scr_over_voltage_crowbar.php There is usually a fuse or circuit breaker "upstream" of the circuit that blows when the "Crowbar" trips. For safety reasons, I'd have a way to isolate the Voltage suppy (Generator ,alternator, dynamo) from the battery. And a a reset on the protection element (like if your using fuses, a spare fuse). Bill Higdon > yes over voltage can cook other stuff too > radio > trans pon > some ign systems > i am just figuring a good way to protect my stuff > p ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 09:55:08 -0500 From: "JIM VANCE" Subject: KR> Overvoltage protection To: "krnet" Message-ID: <001a01c5d7e1$c3557be0$6a88f53f@Vance> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Any alternator will deliver a very high voltage spike when it first comes on line. I have measured these to be as high as 90 volts, using an oscilloscope. It only lasts a few milliseconds, but that is enough to fry electronics. The battery will absorb a lot of the spike, if the cables from the alternator to the battery are large diameter and short. Circuit breakers can take up to half a second to open when there is an overload, because they are a thermal device and have to heat up before they open. If you are using fuses to protect your electronics, make sure you are using the quick blow type. Some fuses are time delayed so they won't blow on a spike, but open when the average current goes high. The best approach to limit the spike is to put an 18 volt, 5 watt or larger zener diode from the alternator output connection directly to ground. It doesn't take a large one to swallow the spike. Any electronics supply store should have them in stock. When the voltage regulator goes belly up, there's little that can be done, since most electronics will go before the fuse or circuit breaker blows. I'm breadboarding up a low voltage indicator (with a flashing light to get my attention), since I'm using the standard VW ignition system and want maximum time to get on the ground before my battery quits. I will probably play with a high voltage warning circuit, too, but that is a good winter project. Jim Vance Vance@hbcomm.net ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 11:21:29 EDT From: IFLYKRS@aol.com Subject: Re: KR> measure and verify the actual CG location, prior to flying. To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <214.c320c02.308d0479@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Once you know the empty weight and CG on your airplane - then you can figure the extreme limit and then stay within it. I know that I can carry full fuel and 200 lb passenger and be within my CG if I have no more than 25 lbs of baggage in the back. (as since tested to be true) If I have over 50lbs of baggage in the back I sit on the rear CG when the fuel in the header is empty. With only 25 lbs I give myself a little room for error. It took off fine from Valdosta at @1400 lbs. but I made sure to keep all manuevers gentle and smooth. You dont want any excuse for an accelerated stall to happen. Yes I was over gross but that was planned. Learn the limits and how your plane reacts. Work up to it gradually. I had 250 hours on my plane before I tried at this weight. It is not something I will do repeatedly but in a pinch I could do so comfortably. Bill ------------------------------ Message: 17 Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 11:23:59 EDT From: IFLYKRS@aol.com Subject: Re: KR> Gear legs and belly-boards To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <9a.303b961e.308d050f@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Landing a tri gear at minimun speed is not an issue. Landing a low taildragger is a problem at minimum speed because the tail wheel will impact the runway before the mains and set up a miserable bounce. Therefore a little more speed is required on some taildraggers - such as mine- for a smooth landing. Float is not a big issue - good brakes might be. Bill ------------------------------ Message: 18 Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 15:32:04 +0000 From: w.higdon9604@comcast.net Subject: Re: KR> Overvoltage protection To: KRnet Message-ID: <102320051532.3537.435BACF40006E53600000DD12205886442CBCFC0C702010B090708D299@comcast.net> Jim, You've brought up some very good points, I've seen Zeners used like you said, when there is a spike big enough to trigger them, they become a solid short to ground. SO they need to be replaced after they trigger, but they do save more expensive electronics from DEATH. And yes I've replaced more than a few Zeners that were used like this. It's cheap insurance for your electronics. The SCR crowbar will trigger and stay triggered until you remove power, so the fuse type will not mater. I've had to test this circuit in some ery expensive Mil-Spec Avionics. Bill Higdon > Any alternator will deliver a very high voltage spike when it first > comes on > line. I have measured these to be as high as 90 volts, using an oscilloscope. > It only lasts a few milliseconds, but that is enough to fry electronics. > > The battery will absorb a lot of the spike, if the cables from the > alternator to > the battery are large diameter and short. > > Circuit breakers can take up to half a second to open when there is an > overload, > because they are a thermal device and have to heat up before they open. > > If you are using fuses to protect your electronics, make sure you are > using the > quick blow type. Some fuses are time delayed so they won't blow on a spike, but > open when the average current goes high. > > The best approach to limit the spike is to put an 18 volt, 5 watt or > larger > zener diode from the alternator output connection directly to ground. It > doesn't take a large one to swallow the spike. Any electronics supply store > should have them in stock. > > When the voltage regulator goes belly up, there's little that can be > done, since > most electronics will go before the fuse or circuit breaker blows. I'm > breadboarding up a low voltage indicator (with a flashing light to get my > attention), since I'm using the standard VW ignition system and want maximum > time to get on the ground before my battery quits. I will probably play with a > high voltage warning circuit, too, but that is a good winter project. > > Jim Vance > Vance@hbcomm.net > _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 19 Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 11:05:45 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: flesner@midwest.net Subject: KR> e-mail problems / landing a KR To: KRnet Message-ID: <7448243.1130083545979.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I've switched to Verison DSL and I'm experiancing some e-mail problems so I hope this goes out. On landing a KR, I agree with Mark L. and Bill C. that you have to wheel land a KR to get consistantly good landings. I have three pointed my KR a time or two in little or no wind conditions but it was just by luck. The thing is with most KRs you can't put the airplane in a full stall attitude without the tailwheel touching first as Bill C. stated. This will cause the mains to contact with a thud and put you right back into the air. My KR has longer than standard gear legs and my three-point attitude on the ground is approx 12 degrees and my KR has the 3.5 degrees set into the wings. This is still less than the wing stall angle of 14 to 16 degrees so even if I make a three point touchdown, the KR is still capable of flight. Any rebound from the gear or a gust of wind can have me airborne. My landings in the KR go as follows: Once established in the flare I try to hold it just inches off the runway. The angle of attach increases until I'm in a tail-low attitude as the mains touch. Once the mains touch I come forward on the stick just enough to hold the mains on the runway. Remember, you are still several mph above stall speed. Once I can no longer hold the tail up I'm below stall speed and I come full back on the stick and begin braking. The worst landings result from flaring too high and then trying to hold it off too long and the tail touches first. On a short grass strip I will sometimes let it settle on a bit fast in the flare in a near level attitude so I can start getting the braking action of the grass quicker. Once the mains touch, a bit of forward stick plants the airplane. It is much more stable and controllable in this attitude then "wollowing" down to stall speed, drifting, touching tail first, boucning, etc. I'm convinced that a tail low wheel landing is the only way to land with any crosswind. As always, your results may vary. Larry Flesner 180 hours and still grinnin' ------------------------------ Message: 20 Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 12:18:07 -0400 From: VIRGIL N SALISBURY Subject: Re: KR> Gear legs and belly-boards To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <20051023.121907.1600.1.virgnvs@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 11:23:59 EDT IFLYKRS@aol.com writes: > Landing a tri gear at minimun speed is not an issue. Landing a low > > taildragger is a problem at minimum speed because the tail wheel > will impact the > runway before the mains and set up a miserable bounce. When the tail is on the ground first, it will not bounce. you are locked into landing. Proven many times in Cubs Champs & Tcraft. As you slow, the angle of attack becomes less and you will not become airborne, Virg Therefore a > little more > speed is required on some taildraggers - such as mine- for a smooth > landing. > Float is not a big issue - good brakes might be. Bill > _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at > http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > Virgil N. Salisbury - AMSOIL www.lubedealer.com/salisbury Miami ,Fl ------------------------------ Message: 21 Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 11:58:27 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: flesner@midwest.net Subject: Re: KR> Gear legs and belly-boards To: KRnet Message-ID: <14279533.1130086707862.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii When the tail is on the ground first, it will not bounce. you are locked into landing. proved many times in Cubs Champs & Tcraft. As you slow, the angle of attack becomes less and you will not become airborne, VJ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Most of the old aircraft (Cubs, Champs, Tcraft) had bunge landing gear systems that absorbed the energy of the mains hitting the ground. Try that in an airplane with a gear system that will spring you back into the air ( early Cessna's, KR's ). The fact that my KR (any airplane for that matter) is still flying if the tailwheel touches first indicates that the three point attitude on the ground is less than the stall speed. Any gear system that does not fully absorb the impact forces will have you airborne again and flying. Even if the touchdown is smooth and no bounce results, any increase in headwind could have you flying again. A quartering head wind is the worst as it may raise only one wing and at the same time cause you to drift sideways. Not a good situation, in a taildragger especially. Tri-gear aircraft tend to align themselves with the direction of travel once the mains are on the ground. The physics of taildragger gear cause them to prefer going tail first on the ground. The taildragger pilot must use the aerodynamic qualities of the airplane , and possibly some braking action, to control the airplane from the moment the wheels contact the ground until the wing has completely stopped flying and he/she can control the ground handling with the gear ( steerable tailwheel or brakes and rudder with a full-swivel tailwheel). You can tell how comfortable a KR pilot is in landing his KR by the number of pucker wrinkles in his seat cushion ! :-) Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Message: 22 Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 13:27:36 -0400 From: "Orma" Subject: Re: KR> Gear legs and belly-boards To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <018201c5d7f7$10dd9c20$0302a8c0@ROBBINS1> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original While my KR was a retract, and before I installed flaps, the only was to slow the KR to a reasonable landing speed was to fly with the nose high and the tail low. If not, the approach speed would always get too high. It was quite common for me to come in and land with the tail touching first. The tail would touch and you could hear that little caster wheel start to spool up and the tail cone would act as a megaphone and the noise was like a roar. I could balance the aircraft on the tail and very slowly lower the nose until the mains would touch. My forward roll out would me all but non existent. This could usually only be accomplished with the wind down the runway. Obviously I changed gear and added flaps for a reason. On all the days except the perfect ones, My approach had to be flat and in the nose high landing attitude I had no forward visibility. The flaps corrected that problem and the fixed spring bar gave me the ability to bounce on the days when I was less then perfect. Now most of the time I wheel land and hold the tail off like Larry described till it won't fly any more and use lots of brakes to keep the roll out short. On the occasions when I have had lots of pattern practice and fly the final approach at less then 70 MPH my roll outs are fairly short. As my approach speeds near 80 MPH, I can float for what seems forever. Managing the final approach speed and visibility over the nose was my motivators for installing flaps. Orma Southfield, MI KR-2 N110LR 1984 See Tweety at http://www.kr-2.aviation-mechanics.com See other KR spces at www.kr-2.aviation-mechanics.com/krinfo.htm ------------------------------ Message: 23 Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 10:42:15 -0700 From: "Steve Glover" Subject: RE: KR> Gear legs and belly-boards To: "'KRnet'" Message-ID: <000e01c5d7f9$1b890400$0202a8c0@IntelliSpec> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Well Virg, I would say since you have not flown a KR, you really are not qualified to comment here. I have also flown Champs, Cubs, etc. in addition to the 300 hours in my KR. They land VERY different from a KR in speed and weight. I can assure you, the KR will bounce back into the air after the tail wheel contacts the ground first. Please don't take this as a flame but the misinformation could get someone hurt who is new to flying the KR. Regards, Steve Glover KR-2 N902G AJO, Ca Virg said> When the tail is on the ground first, it will not bounce. you are locked into landing. Proven many times in Cubs Champs & Tcraft. As you slow, the angle of attack becomes less and you will not become airborne, Virg ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ See KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html End of KRnet Digest, Vol 347, Issue 426 *************************************** ================================== ABC Amber Outlook Converter v4.20 Trial version ==================================