From: krnet-bounces+johnbou=speakeasy.net@mylist.net To: John Bouyea Subject: KRnet Digest, Vol 347, Issue 491 Date: 11/30/2005 1:15:53 PM Send KRnet mailing list submissions to krnet@mylist.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mylist.net/listinfo/krnet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to krnet-request@mylist.net You can reach the person managing the list at krnet-owner@mylist.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of KRnet digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Corvair engine for sale (Bart Ransom) 2. Added Photos / Joe Horton (Mark Jones) 3. RE: Primer (Ron Butterfield) 4. primer (Colin Rainey) 5. RE: primer (Steve Bray) 6. RE: primer (Golden, Kevin) 7. Warp Drive Prop (Scott Cable) 8. RE: Warp Drive Prop (Mark Jones) 9. primer (Colin Rainey) 10. RE: Warp Drive Prop (Mark Jones) 11. RE: primer (Steve Bray) 12. Priming and teaching (Colin Rainey) 13. RE: Priming and teaching (Steve Bray) 14. RE: Priming and teaching (Golden, Kevin) 15. Re: Warp Drive Prop (Phil Matheson) 16. Re: Priming and teaching (Jerry Mahurin) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 23:01:31 -0800 (PST) From: Bart Ransom Subject: Re: KR> Corvair engine for sale To: KRnet Message-ID: <20051130070131.33689.qmail@web35603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Hey Bob: I am going to be in the Milwaukee area next week on business. I am interested. Bart Ransom. rvz wrote: If anyone is looking for one in the Milwaukee area I have a complete, but torn down, engine that I'm not going to be using. It comes with a pile of KR-2 parts that I'm going to get rid of as well. It's all stuff (junk?) that came off a couple of projects too scarey to complete. Email me PRIVATELY, not on the list, and I'll explain in more detail what's there. Bob bob@wheelerexpress.com _______________________________________ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html --------------------------------- Yahoo! Personals Single? There's someone we'd like you to meet. Lots of someones, actually. Yahoo! Personals ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 07:32:00 -0600 From: "Mark Jones" Subject: KR> Added Photos / Joe Horton To: "CorvAircraft \(E-mail\)" , "KR Net \(E-mail\)" Message-ID: <26D1C67793459F43BF8DA235F92B1F35C103A7@tulsaexchange.tulsaokmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I just found some more photos I had on Joe Horton's KR CorvAIRCRAFTbuilding phase and added them to his web site. Here is the link for your viewing pleasure: http://flykr2s.com/joehorton.html Mark Jones (N886MJ) Wales, WI Visit my "NEW" KR CorvAIRCRAFT web site: http://www.flykr2s.com Email: mailto:flykr2s@wi.rr.com ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 09:43:15 -0500 From: Ron Butterfield Subject: RE: KR> Primer To: KRnet Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20051130093732.01d50c08@pop.mebtel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed At 02:09 PM 11/29/05, Ron Freiberger wrote: >What ever happened to the pull-out-to -fill-push-in -to-squirt idea..?. >Works well, easy to use, and simple. Put one line to each side at the >top, use a .016 diameter orifice. The fuel lines don't _have_ to run into the cockpit to do this. It would be fairly simple to run a cable or small rod from the panel to the firewall, thus having the pushbutton on the panel but the fuel on the other side of the firewall. Of course, it does increase parts count. ;-) Think about mode of failure too. If the primer doesn't squirt fuel when it's supposed to, what happens? The engine doesn't start and you sit there on the ground trying to figure out why. On the other hand, if the primer squirts fuel when it's _not_ supposed to, what happens? In my opinion, there are a lot more bad possibilities with this option. Just another opinion to add to the pile ;-) Regards, RonB ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 10:16:03 -0500 From: "Colin Rainey" Subject: KR> primer To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <410-220051133015163147@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII The manual primer can also create a no start rich condition if the pilot doesn't get the knob seated and locked, which happens more frequently than A&P's would like to admit. All the certified planes I flew with carbs had this type primer, and half were so hard to push in and out after a few years, that it would be easy to not have it seated by a low hour pilot. This then allows the fuel to be "sucked" in through this primer port as well, causing a rich condition and engine stall. Also you can't use this type while cranking, only before. I do not like it because you do not know how much fuel you are injecting, and you get all at once, like gradually like the solenoid. The electronic solenoid can hang open true, but if a high quality one is used, it should be reliable for many years trouble free. Cold start solenoids have been used on VW engines in cars for years, and would be perfect for those wanting a single injector after the carb... Colin Rainey brokerpilot96ta@earthlink.net EarthLink Revolves Around You. ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 09:33:04 -0600 From: "Steve Bray" Subject: RE: KR> primer To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Colin I had a push primer in my VP and have one in my 172, I have failed to lock it and didn;t notice any problem. I also feel as if I have some control of the amount of fuel I push in. When you push 1/2 or 1/4 of a stroke surely that is less fuel. Why can't it be used while cranking the motor? Steve Bray Jackson, Tennessee >From: "Colin Rainey" >Reply-To: brokerpilot96ta@earthlink.net, KRnet >To: krnet@mylist.net >Subject: KR> primer >Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 10:16:03 -0500 > >The manual primer can also create a no start rich condition if the >pilot >doesn't get the knob seated and locked, which happens more frequently than >A&P's would like to admit. All the certified planes I flew with carbs had >this type primer, and half were so hard to push in and out after a few >years, that it would be easy to not have it seated by a low hour pilot. >This then allows the fuel to be "sucked" in through this primer port as >well, causing a rich condition and engine stall. Also you can't use this >type while cranking, only before. I do not like it because you do not know >how much fuel you are injecting, and you get all at once, like gradually >like the solenoid. The electronic solenoid can hang open true, but if a >high quality one is used, it should be reliable for many years trouble >free. Cold start solenoids have been used on VW engines in cars for years, >and would be perfect for those wanting a single injector after the carb... > > >Colin Rainey >brokerpilot96ta@earthlink.net >EarthLink Revolves Around You. _______________________________________ >Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp >to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net >please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 10:42:28 -0500 From: "Golden, Kevin" Subject: RE: KR> primer To: "KRnet" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I have used it while cranking. During cold starts I would leave the primer out a bit and sometimes "catch" the engine with a bit more prime before the carb could get fuel to the engine. I have always heard that leaving a primer out could be a bad thing. I have had no trouble, but don't remember ever leaving it out. I will ask around the hangar fellas to see if it has ever happened to them. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-bounces@mylist.net] On Behalf Of Steve Bray Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 9:33 AM To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: RE: KR> primer Colin I had a push primer in my VP and have one in my 172, I have failed to lock it and didn;t notice any problem. I also feel as if I have some control of the amount of fuel I push in. When you push 1/2 or 1/4 of a stroke surely that is less fuel. Why can't it be used while cranking the motor? Steve Bray Jackson, Tennessee >From: "Colin Rainey" >Reply-To: brokerpilot96ta@earthlink.net, KRnet >To: krnet@mylist.net >Subject: KR> primer >Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 10:16:03 -0500 > >The manual primer can also create a no start rich condition if the pilot >doesn't get the knob seated and locked, which happens more frequently than >A&P's would like to admit. All the certified planes I flew with carbs had >this type primer, and half were so hard to push in and out after a few >years, that it would be easy to not have it seated by a low hour pilot. >This then allows the fuel to be "sucked" in through this primer port as >well, causing a rich condition and engine stall. Also you can't use this >type while cranking, only before. I do not like it because you do not know >how much fuel you are injecting, and you get all at once, like gradually >like the solenoid. The electronic solenoid can hang open true, but if a >high quality one is used, it should be reliable for many years trouble >free. Cold start solenoids have been used on VW engines in cars for years, >and would be perfect for those wanting a single injector after the carb... > > >Colin Rainey >brokerpilot96ta@earthlink.net >EarthLink Revolves Around You. >_______________________________________ >Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp >to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net >please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html _______________________________________ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html *The information contained in this message may be confidential and/or subject to legal privilege, and is for the use of the intended addressee only. Any unauthorized use, dissemination or copying of the information in this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this message.* ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 08:08:04 -0800 (PST) From: Scott Cable Subject: KR> Warp Drive Prop To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <20051130160805.52098.qmail@web53012.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mark Jones, Since I haven't heard anything further about my Warp Drive Prop, I thought that I would write you to give you the opportunity to make things right. Prior to shipping you my prop for use in the KR prop bank, I had replaced all of the hardware. I had the propeller hub and spinner bulkhead Dye Penetrant inspected by a friend at work (I was working for a little aircraft company called Boeing), to insure serviceablity of the prop for aircraft use. Never mind the fact that the prop had been removed from a corvair powered soneri that had been flying with no issues...Yet,You reported a vibration from it, which you blamed on a balance issue. What is suspect is the manner in which you mounted my prop to your airplane. I had supplied you Warp Drive's website in numerous emails, yet the prop was way over-torqued. I also suspect that when you assembled the prop and hub, you didn't bother assembling the proper blade into the correct location and or re-index the prop hub halves. Can you not follow simple instructions? This is the condition that I recieved my prop back in: The bolts are stripped from obviously being way over-torqued. Missing bolts and nuts. The bolt heads have been stripped from the use of pliers. The prop hub has eyebrow inclusions on it where the prop attach bolts were over-torqued. The propeller hub has nicks / gouges on it. The spinner bulkhead has knife edge burrs in all of the attachment holes. I know the burrs were not there when I sent it to you as I had the prop hub and spinner bulkhead Dye Penetrant inspected and all of the holes were de-burred /chamfered. This is what needs to be done: Replace the stripped / missing hardware. Contact Warp Drive for the replacement hardware kit. Reimburse me the expenses required to bring the propeller hub back to serviceable condition. I'm going to need to send the hub back to Warp Drive to have it inspected, refaced or replaced. Replace the Spinner bulkhead. The bulkhead is now un-serviceable because in order to remove the knife edge burrs, the holes will get elongated and will cause the spinner to wobble, vibrate and fail. Please reference the email below that I recieved from Mark Langford prior to shipping me back my prop. Mark Langford wrote: From: "Mark Langford" To: Subject: Re: Warp Drive Prop Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 20:40:27 -0500 Scott, I'll ship your prop back tomorrow. I never got a chance to test it using the vibration data logger due to time constraints, and never mounted it to the plane or did anything else with it since I brought it home from Jone's house. I took it apart to ship it tonight and two of the nuts were stripped due to over torquing. They were low height shear nuts, and over torqued by at least a factor of two, so that's not surprising. Jones reported a vibration from it, and that may have been why. I couldn't get the nuts off without drilling the end of the bolt/nut out, but that eventually worked without damaging the hub. I'd have put some new full height nuts in the box but my nut box is at the airport so I had to leave them out. Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama Scott Cable Jamestown, ND s2cable1@yahoo.com --------------------------------- Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 10:45:21 -0600 From: "Mark Jones" Subject: RE: KR> Warp Drive Prop To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <26D1C67793459F43BF8DA235F92B1F35C103AD@tulsaexchange.tulsaokmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Scott, I am truly apologetic for any problems with the prop and will work with you to make it right. Over torque must have been the cause of a faulty torque wrench because I did use one and yes I did follow the instructions closely as well as have someone who has a three bladed warp drive on their plane help me with the installation. Pretty simple to install a prop. As far as the spinner goes, it was never used or installed on my plane or anyone else's. It was returned exactly the way we received it. Also this is the first info I have had on this prop since I turned it over to Langford and you asked for it to be returned. If you wish to contact me by phone, please do so at 800-242-2219. If I damaged the prop, I am responsible and like I said, will make it right. Mark Jones (N886MJ) Wales, WI Visit my web site: http://www.flykr2s.com Email: mailto:flykr2s@wi.rr.com -----Original Message----- From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-bounces@mylist.net]On Behalf Of Scott Cable Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 10:08 AM To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: KR> Warp Drive Prop Mark Jones, Since I haven't heard anything further about my Warp Drive Prop, I thought that I would write you to give you the opportunity to make things right. Prior to shipping you my prop for use in the KR prop bank, I had replaced all of the hardware. I had the propeller hub and spinner bulkhead Dye Penetrant inspected by a friend at work (I was working for a little aircraft company called Boeing), to insure serviceablity of the prop for aircraft use. Never mind the fact that the prop had been removed from a corvair powered soneri that had been flying with no issues...Yet,You reported a vibration from it, which you blamed on a balance issue. What is suspect is the manner in which you mounted my prop to your airplane. I had supplied you Warp Drive's website in numerous emails, yet the prop was way over-torqued. I also suspect that when you assembled the prop and hub, you didn't bother assembling the proper blade into the correct location and or re-index the prop hub halves. Can you not follow simple instructions? This is the condition that I recieved my prop back in: The bolts are stripped from obviously being way over-torqued. Missing bolts and nuts. The bolt heads have been stripped from the use of pliers. The prop hub has eyebrow inclusions on it where the prop attach bolts were over-torqued. The propeller hub has nicks / gouges on it. The spinner bulkhead has knife edge burrs in all of the attachment holes. I know the burrs were not there when I sent it to you as I had the prop hub and spinner bulkhead Dye Penetrant inspected and all of the holes were de-burred /chamfered. This is what needs to be done: Replace the stripped / missing hardware. Contact Warp Drive for the replacement hardware kit. Reimburse me the expenses required to bring the propeller hub back to serviceable condition. I'm going to need to send the hub back to Warp Drive to have it inspected, refaced or replaced. Replace the Spinner bulkhead. The bulkhead is now un-serviceable because in order to remove the knife edge burrs, the holes will get elongated and will cause the spinner to wobble, vibrate and fail. Please reference the email below that I recieved from Mark Langford prior to shipping me back my prop. Mark Langford wrote: From: "Mark Langford" To: Subject: Re: Warp Drive Prop Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 20:40:27 -0500 Scott, I'll ship your prop back tomorrow. I never got a chance to test it using the vibration data logger due to time constraints, and never mounted it to the plane or did anything else with it since I brought it home from Jone's house. I took it apart to ship it tonight and two of the nuts were stripped due to over torquing. They were low height shear nuts, and over torqued by at least a factor of two, so that's not surprising. Jones reported a vibration from it, and that may have been why. I couldn't get the nuts off without drilling the end of the bolt/nut out, but that eventually worked without damaging the hub. I'd have put some new full height nuts in the box but my nut box is at the airport so I had to leave them out. Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama Scott Cable Jamestown, ND s2cable1@yahoo.com --------------------------------- Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. _______________________________________ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 11:53:24 -0500 From: "Colin Rainey" Subject: KR> primer To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <410-2200511330165324163@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII According to the 1980 Cessna 172 manual priming with one to two full strokes should be sufficient to crank most engines that are cold, in normal conditions. This should apply well to all KR engines where the manual primer is properly matched to the engine. In winter up to 6 strokes may be necessary. Also, priming during starting IS permitted, however a notation is made to insure that the primer knob is secured prior to beginning flight operations due to the possibility of drawing fuel through the primer, which is unregulated, and unmeasured. This is what I meant about unknown amount. Unless you take one apart, and then measure the injected amount, you have no idea how much fuel you are putting in, same as the solenoid. Too much causes cylinder wash which greatly increases the amount of wear on the engine. MOST low hour pilots over richen their engines, or fail to lean properly, or at all. The reason we teach not to use while cranking is the increased fire hazard due to causing a backfire, and the fact that it could be left unsecured, causing an over rich condition in cruise. This makes for two problems: 1) Lack of fuel economy expected, which could result in an emergency landing (number one reason for emergency landings overall, running out of fuel); 2) fuel fouling plugs causing carbon buildup and excessive engine wear, low power, and possible engine failure/shutoff in flight. Just because one gets away with doing what is not recommended does not mean it is correct, or good to do. If the manufacturer does not endorse it, and they are the "expert" of that setup, then don't do it no matter who recommends it. There is ALWAYS too much other information missing that allows that person to use the unusual procedure that doesn't make it on to the page when talking. Just my 2 cents worth... Colin Rainey brokerpilot96ta@earthlink.net EarthLink Revolves Around You. ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 11:50:47 -0600 From: "Mark Jones" Subject: RE: KR> Warp Drive Prop To: Cc: "KR Net \(E-mail\)" Message-ID: <26D1C67793459F43BF8DA235F92B1F35C103B1@tulsaexchange.tulsaokmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Scott, Mark Langford just sent me the first post you made which for some reason did not make it through on my e-mail carrier. Man, you really slammed me hard there. I am in a state of shock and I think my blood pressure has risen to levels it has never seen before. First off, I could not believe you would send that to the KR Net without contacting me first about the issues at hand. I hope that no one else got it either. I have never in my life had anyone speak of me the way you just did. I go out of my way to help everyone I can but that just may come to a screeching halt. The issue with the shipping box and the way you received it is that Langford picked up your prop in his car at my house and did not take the box with him. I doubt it would have fitted inside his car anyway. I wish I had shipped the box back to you but I did not think that was necessary (again my mistake). I guess that is what I get for thinking. Let me know how much I need to reimburse you for the box. Also, like I said before, I will work with you to make things right with your prop. Mark Jones (N886MJ) Wales, WI Visit my web site: http://www.flykr2s.com Email: mailto:flykr2s@wi.rr.com ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 12:13:31 -0600 From: "Steve Bray" Subject: RE: KR> primer To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Colin I agree with you 100% Every thing you say is per the manual, I have one and have read it. I wasn't suggesting using the primer while cranking the engine, I just don't remember ever hearing anyone say or reading not to. You stated it as if it was verboten. I agree its not a good idea for the reasons you stated. I also believe that if you don't know how to use a primer you should not be flying an airplane. I also do not want to be dependent on a battery to stay in the air so I believe in gravity feed and mags. Murphy has proven himself to me more than once. I believe you are an instructor and was wondering if you tell your students that when something big goes wrong ( engine quits ) the first thing you do is wind the clock? My instructor did. This gives you time to think instead of just snatching and grabbing, turning and pulling and possibly making things worse but I'm sure you knew what I meant. I think you said you were about to get your ATP, I hope that worked out, and I asked if that's the same as an ATR. Since then i talked to a twenty year American pilot and he said his still is an ATR. Colin you are doing a very good job on this list and I respect you and your accomplishments and in no way mean to dispute anything you've said, as you say. Just my 2 cents worth. Steve Bray Jackson, Tennessee >From: "Colin Rainey" >Reply-To: brokerpilot96ta@earthlink.net, KRnet >To: krnet@mylist.net >Subject: KR> primer >Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 11:53:24 -0500 > >According to the 1980 Cessna 172 manual priming with one to two full >strokes should be sufficient to crank most engines that are cold, in normal >conditions. This should apply well to all KR engines where the manual >primer is properly matched to the engine. In winter up to 6 strokes may be >necessary. Also, priming during starting IS permitted, however a notation >is made to insure that the primer knob is secured prior to beginning flight >operations due to the possibility of drawing fuel through the primer, which >is unregulated, and unmeasured. This is what I meant about unknown amount. >Unless you take one apart, and then measure the injected amount, you have >no idea how much fuel you are putting in, same as the solenoid. Too much >causes cylinder wash which greatly increases the amount of wear on the >engine. MOST low hour pilots over richen their engines, or fail to lean >properly, or at all. The reason we teach not to use while cranking is the >increased fire hazard due to causing a backfire, and the fact that it could >be left unsecured, causing an over rich condition in cruise. This makes for >two problems: 1) Lack of fuel economy expected, which could result in an >emergency landing (number one reason for emergency landings overall, >running out of fuel); 2) fuel fouling plugs causing carbon buildup and >excessive engine wear, low power, and possible engine failure/shutoff in >flight. > >Just because one gets away with doing what is not recommended does not mean >it is correct, or good to do. If the manufacturer does not endorse it, and >they are the "expert" of that setup, then don't do it no matter who >recommends it. There is ALWAYS too much other information missing that >allows that person to use the unusual procedure that doesn't make it on to >the page when talking. > >Just my 2 cents worth... > >Colin Rainey >brokerpilot96ta@earthlink.net >EarthLink Revolves Around You. >_______________________________________ >Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp >to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net >please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 13:37:52 -0500 From: "Colin Rainey" Subject: KR> Priming and teaching To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <410-2200511330183752522@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Steve Let me first say that my remarks were NOT directed at you but were in response to Kevin Golden in the way that he stated he used the primer to supplement fuel supply. It may work, and he may have the experience to use it that way without consequence, but does he want to be responsible for a low hour pilot taking that information and using it without having the experience or knowledge to do so, and getting hurt or someone else getting hurt. That is my biggest concern about sharing information here on the net. The Net has been very useful for me while learning about my KR2, and hope it will continue to be for all the builders here. If I state something that I was taught, or remember from experience, and it is wrong, 99% of the time it is erroring on the side of safety, and I will always come back and openly admit my error, so that all pilots here can see that I am not an expert, nor infallible, and that all good pilots are ALWAYS learning. Several who know more than me have corrected on more than one post, as you have pointed out, and I sit at home, and go OOOOPPPSSS! I then go look it up, and learn again.... Yes I am a CFI, and yes I do teach a controlled response to an engine failure, or any other problem in flight, and actually teach pausing 10 seconds to actually assess the condition, as your instructor taught. I have been with students who in nervous response, pulled the mixture to cutoff instead of the throttle when the plane's attitude was suddenly upset from a maneuver to a steep spiral. I agree and teach the same. If you will remember I preached using those checklists not long ago, and made sure the links on Dan's site were working for all who wanted them. Your friend is probably referring to ATR as being Airline Transport Rating, and ATP is Airline Transport Pilot rating, which is saying the same thing two different ways. I just caution against disseminating information that is not in the manuals, or backed up with concrete training procedures because so many pilots with such a wide variety of experience are on this list and literally learn a great deal from our discussions, which sometimes are the first time they have heard of such things. I did not intend for it to appear to be a slam or flame and apologize if it came across that way. Colin Rainey brokerpilot96ta@earthlink.net EarthLink Revolves Around You. ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 13:30:12 -0600 From: "Steve Bray" Subject: RE: KR> Priming and teaching To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Steve Bray Jackson, Tennessee Colin If I caught you in a mistake I missed it. I made the mistake of not reading all the mail. After I replied to you I read Kevin's and figured it out. I'm glad your teaching them to think but now that I think about it I guess your forced to If you want to survive. Have you ever heard the wind the clock thing? Wimpy, my instructor, also told me not to fly a single engine airplane at night. He said he knew I would do it anyway so when the engine quit to do my best to pick a spot and line up then turn on the landing light. If I liked what I saw, land. If I didn't , turn them off ! That went farther toward getting me to think about it than just telling me not to. He told me when (not if ) I got into trouble while learning to loop and spin in my J-3 to let go, it knew more about flying than I ever would. He would pull the throttle and say pick a spot. More than once he let me complete it. The one time I actually did this 25 years later I called him and thanked him for it. The thing that scares me about list, not so much this one but the VP and others is that some of the people that read them have never flown and have no discernment. You and others speak up quickly and clearly and that's the way it should be. Continue please. Try not to get to bored flying that airliner, Steve B ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 15:43:59 -0500 From: "Golden, Kevin" Subject: RE: KR> Priming and teaching To: , "KRnet" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Against my better judgement, I will reply. I fly the same airplane that I have owned now for 21 years, (I am 41 now). When a person becomes a pilot, I believe there is a huge responsibility to do things right. Yes, we are learning all the time, (this is part of the fun of it all)but there are things we learn that may not seem obvious to others that should be passed on. Some are simple mechanical things that those who aren't so mechanical need to understand. If you understand how something works in an airplane, then you might be able to save your hide someday doing the right thing. On a Yahoo site that I belong to, there is talk about leaning out an engine before takeoff. Some say to not do it at all. I will tell you if I hadn't done it, then I would have been in the trees at the end of the runway more than once. I have had some hard lessons with my airplane over the years. Some to do with very well paid and popular mechanics fixing things just to find them literally falling off of the airplane within an hour or two of repair. This mechanic asked me to bring the plane back and he will make it right. I just told him no thank you. Nearly kill me once, shame on you, try to kill me twice, shame on me. This is one of the main reasons for my interest in homebuilts. Bottom line: If I am responsible enough to do a preflight, go through the checklist before takeoff, and fly responsibly, then I should be able to remember to push in and lock the primer before takeoff. If anyone reading this is not, then lock it down before you start the engine. Happy flying Kevin. -----Original Message----- From: krnet-bounces+kevin.golden=churchdwight.com@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-bounces+kevin.golden=churchdwight.com@mylist.net] On Behalf Of Colin Rainey Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 12:38 PM To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: KR> Priming and teaching Steve Let me first say that my remarks were NOT directed at you but were in response to Kevin Golden in the way that he stated he used the primer to supplement fuel supply. It may work, and he may have the experience to use it that way without consequence, but does he want to be responsible for a low hour pilot taking that information and using it without having the experience or knowledge to do so, and getting hurt or someone else getting hurt. That is my biggest concern about sharing information here on the net. The Net has been very useful for me while learning about my KR2, and hope it will continue to be for all the builders here. If I state something that I was taught, or remember from experience, and it is wrong, 99% of the time it is erroring on the side of safety, and I will always come back and openly admit my error, so that all pilots here can see that I am not an expert, nor infallible, and that all good pilots are ALWAYS learning. Several who know more than me have corrected on more than one post, as you have pointed out, and I sit at home, and go OOOOPPPSSS! I then go look it up, and learn again.... Yes I am a CFI, and yes I do teach a controlled response to an engine failure, or any other problem in flight, and actually teach pausing 10 seconds to actually assess the condition, as your instructor taught. I have been with students who in nervous response, pulled the mixture to cutoff instead of the throttle when the plane's attitude was suddenly upset from a maneuver to a steep spiral. I agree and teach the same. If you will remember I preached using those checklists not long ago, and made sure the links on Dan's site were working for all who wanted them. Your friend is probably referring to ATR as being Airline Transport Rating, and ATP is Airline Transport Pilot rating, which is saying the same thing two different ways. I just caution against disseminating information that is not in the manuals, or backed up with concrete training procedures because so many pilots with such a wide variety of experience are on this list and literally learn a great deal from our discussions, which sometimes are the first time they have heard of such things. I did not intend for it to appear to be a slam or flame and apologize if it came across that way. Colin Rainey brokerpilot96ta@earthlink.net EarthLink Revolves Around You. _______________________________________ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html *The information contained in this message may be confidential and/or subject to legal privilege, and is for the use of the intended addressee only. Any unauthorized use, dissemination or copying of the information in this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this message.* ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 07:48:02 +1100 From: "Phil Matheson" Subject: Re: KR> Warp Drive Prop To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <009b01c5f5ef$6543faf0$b0a5443d@Office> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original I Hope this was meant to be private. ( if not is very embarrassing to read) But now it has been all over the net. Could we all be very careful when sending those sorts of posts, making sure they only go to the people who need to see them them. Phil Matheson mathesonp@dodo.com.au VH-PKR ( Phil's KR) 61 3 58833588 Australia.( Down Under) See My KR2 Building Web Page at: http://mywebpage.netscape.com/flyingkrphil/VHPKR.html See our VW Engines and Home built web page at http://www.vw-engines.com/ www.homebuilt-aviation.com/ ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 16:14:55 -0500 From: Jerry Mahurin Subject: Re: KR> Priming and teaching To: KRnet Message-ID: <3812d7480511301314p1c91d8efn87737e55f68db4a7@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 ............wow guys.................. I had no idea that a primer was such a controversial subject........... *Dan* has convinced me that the solenoid might be the best way to go..... But *WE *will decide later.... Thanx for all your inputs...........!! It gets crowded in this foxhole at times...... Keep on keeping on.............. On 11/30/05, Golden, Kevin wrote: > > Against my better judgement, I will reply. > > I fly the same airplane that I have owned now for 21 years, (I am 41 > now). When a person becomes a pilot, I believe there is a huge > responsibility to do things right. Yes, we are learning all the time, > (this is part of the fun of it all)but there are things we learn that > may not seem obvious to others that should be passed on. Some are > simple mechanical things that those who aren't so mechanical need to > understand. If you understand how something works in an airplane, then > you might be able to save your hide someday doing the right thing. On a > Yahoo site that I belong to, there is talk about leaning out an engine > before takeoff. Some say to not do it at all. I will tell you if I > hadn't done it, then I would have been in the trees at the end of the > runway more than once. I have had some hard lessons with my airplane > over the years. Some to do with very well paid and popular mechanics > fixing things just to find them literally falling off of the airplane > within an hour or two of repair. This mechanic asked me to bring the > plane back and he will make it right. I just told him no thank you. > Nearly kill me once, shame on you, try to kill me twice, shame on me. > This is one of the main reasons for my interest in homebuilts. > > Bottom line: If I am responsible enough to do a preflight, go through > the checklist before takeoff, and fly responsibly, then I should be able > to remember to push in and lock the primer before takeoff. If anyone > reading this is not, then lock it down before you start the engine. > > Happy flying > Kevin. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: krnet-bounces+kevin.golden=churchdwight.com@mylist.net > [mailto:krnet-bounces+kevin.golden=churchdwight.com@mylist.net] On > Behalf Of Colin Rainey > Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 12:38 PM > To: krnet@mylist.net > Subject: KR> Priming and teaching > > Steve > Let me first say that my remarks were NOT directed at you but were in > response to Kevin Golden in the way that he stated he used the primer to > supplement fuel supply. It may work, and he may have the experience to > use it that way without consequence, but does he want to be responsible > for a low hour pilot taking that information and using it without having > the experience or knowledge to do so, and getting hurt or someone else > getting hurt. That is my biggest concern about sharing information here > on the net. The Net has been very useful for me while learning about my > KR2, and hope it will continue to be for all the builders here. If I > state something that I was taught, or remember from experience, and it > is wrong, 99% of the time it is erroring on the side of safety, and I > will always come back and openly admit my error, so that all pilots here > can see that I am not an expert, nor infallible, and that all good > pilots are ALWAYS learning. Several who know more than me have > corrected on more than one post, as you have pointed out, and I sit at > home, and go OOOOPPPSSS! I then go look it up, and learn again.... > > Yes I am a CFI, and yes I do teach a controlled response to an engine > failure, or any other problem in flight, and actually teach pausing 10 > seconds to actually assess the condition, as your instructor taught. I > have been with students who in nervous response, pulled the mixture to > cutoff instead of the throttle when the plane's attitude was suddenly > upset from a maneuver to a steep spiral. I agree and teach the same. > If you will remember I preached using those checklists not long ago, and > made sure the links on Dan's site were working for all who wanted them. > > Your friend is probably referring to ATR as being Airline Transport > Rating, and ATP is Airline Transport Pilot rating, which is saying the > same thing two different ways. > > I just caution against disseminating information that is not in the > manuals, or backed up with concrete training procedures because so many > pilots with such a wide variety of experience are on this list and > literally learn a great deal from our discussions, which sometimes are > the first time they have heard of such things. I did not intend for it > to appear to be a slam or flame and apologize if it came across that > way. > > Colin Rainey > brokerpilot96ta@earthlink.net > EarthLink Revolves Around You. > _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > *The information contained in this message may be confidential and/or > subject to legal privilege, and is for the use of the intended addressee > only. Any unauthorized use, dissemination or copying of the information in > this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in > error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this message.* > > > > _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > -- Jerry Mahurin - aka - KRJerry EAA# 0034283 Lugoff, SC 29078 ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ See KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html End of KRnet Digest, Vol 347, Issue 491 *************************************** ================================== ABC Amber Outlook Converter v4.20 Trial version ==================================