From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net To: John Bouyea Subject: KRnet Digest, Vol 347, Issue 503 Date: 12/7/2005 9:00:24 PM Send KRnet mailing list submissions to krnet@mylist.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mylist.net/listinfo/krnet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to krnet-request@mylist.net You can reach the person managing the list at krnet-owner@mylist.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of KRnet digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Nuts and bolts (kr2@spottedowl.biz) 2. Re: KR1 (Tim Hoversten) 3. R?f. : RE: KR> Nuts and bolts (Serge VIDAL) 4. Control mevement at aileron cable (Steven Phillabaum) 5. RE: Control mevement at aileron cable (Mark Jones) 6. Re: Nuts and bolts (Ron Butterfield) 7. cable movement (Colin Rainey) 8. perspective (Colin Rainey) 9. Nuts and bolts (Ron Freiberger) 10. RE: perspective (Doug Rupert) 11. R?f. : KR> Nuts and bolts (Serge VIDAL) 12. Re: aileron hinges. (BEARLKBOB@aol.com) 13. control movement ailelrons (Steven Phillabaum) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 23:18:51 -0600 From: Subject: KR> Re: Nuts and bolts To: , Message-ID: <002f01c5faed$b635cee0$6600a8c0@p2450> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I had always assumed the "10" was the number of 1/64s since I have found 1/8 inch and #8s to be relatively interchangeable. But of course after I went searching I discovered I was incorrect. Judging from the table at the link below, it is the number of 1/80s greater than 0.0600 inches (the actual change is 0.013 which is 1/80 rounded to two significant digits). The next smaller size is an 8 which is 0.1640 in Major Diameter. Standard machine screw sizes with associated drill sizes: http://www.engineershandbook.com/Tables/taphole.htm -- wesley scott kr2@spottedowl.biz Bryan, TX Message: 13 Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 18:43:05 +0100 From: Serge VIDAL Subject: KR> Nuts and bolts To: KRnet Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Could somebody well versed in the secrets of the Imperial system tell me: 1 - When a thread size is expressed at, say, 10-32, what do the "10" and the "32" stand for? 2 - The AN system starts at AN3, which is 10-32. What would be the next smaller size in the standard Imperial system? ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 21:51:30 -0800 (PST) From: Tim Hoversten Subject: Re: KR> KR1 To: KRnet Message-ID: <20051207055130.39688.qmail@web54005.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 I have a copy of KR-1 plans book dated 1972. On the cover, it lists: length - 12' 6" span - 17' 2" empty wgt - 310 lbs gross wgt - 600 lbs engine - 36 hp VW (you're right Virg, 1200cc) fuel capacity 7.5 gals top speed 140 mph cruise speed 130 mph stall speed 42 mph The plans also show single mag ignition, alternator and PTT switch, no starter, basic instruments and sling seat. The key to the KR-1 is building it simple and light. Adding length and width will add weight, which will adversely affect performance. Having said that, concerning the 1600 cc VW, there was a category of racers that competed using the 1600, the 2 best examples being the Monnett Sonerai I and the Steve Wittman designed V-Witt, both which cruised at 150mph, climbed at 1,000 fpm and had empty weights of 430-440 lbs and gross wgt of 700 lbs, numbers significantly higher than the KR-1. They also list takeoff distances of 600ft and 800ft respectively. My instructor taught me to multiply takeoff distances by 3 for a safety factor when determining which strips to use, so even with the V-Witt, 2400 feet is plenty. One could argue that since the KR-1 is lighter, the composite surfaces smoother than fabric and metal used in the other 2 planes, and already demonstrated similar performance on LESS power, the 1600 cc should be enough power for the KR-1. I would also recommend finding out which prop size was used on the racers and use it also. By the way, the current world record holder for endurance in the under 660 lb gross wgt class built a plane using the same techniques and materials and is virtually a copy size-wise as the original KR-1 specs listed above, and used a 2cyl 36hp engine to travel 1675 miles in a closed circuit without landing in 15 hours 11 min on 20 gals of fuel in 1988. He won the FAI Bleroit medal. (CONTACT Magazine Issue #76) Sometimes more hp isn't the only way to achieve a goal - keep it simple, strong and safe, and add lightness, is a good credo for KR's. VIRGIL N SALISBURY wrote: Ken flew a 1200 cc, Virg On Sat, 3 Dec 2005 07:36:04 -0600 "Mark Langford" writes: > G.V. Strutt wrote: > > >I would like to know what the average pilot size is for the KR1 . > >Can a KR1 be made to fit a pilot of the following dimensions: 6 foot > >3 inches, weight 205 Pounds. cockpit width required is 24 inches. > > KR1 to be fitted with 1600 vw engine. > > You can certainly build a KR1 to fit just your body, by simply > expanding the > dimensions given on the plans to fit yourself. That'll require > more > thought, but it shouldn't be that much more effort, considering how > skimpy > the plans are to start with. Just keep in mind that the plans were > designed > for a guy that was something like 5'-4" and maybe 140 pounds, and he > didn't > leave any extra room anywhere. I should qualify that with the fact > that > I've never built a KR1, but I have modified a KR2S in a manner > similar to > what you're talking about. > > As far as the 1600cc engine goes, I'll bet 98% of the folks on this > list > shudder at the thought of flying behind a 1600cc VW engine. The > power level > is just too far down there for any kind of decent climb performance. > No > doubt it could be done, however. And 1600cc engines often don't > have the > larger "Force One" main bearing at the prop end, as done by Great > Plains. > If you're going to the trouble of machining the case for the larger > bearing, > you might as well make it an 1835cc engine, which itself isn't a > stellar > performer either. Several folks are replacing 1835cc engines with > Corvairs, > so it may be that you could pick one up for relatively cheap. But I > think > you COULD build a KR1 to fit you that was powered with a 1600cc > engine, but > I'd be willing to bet it wouldn't be long after you started flying > it before > you'd be looking at other engine options. That's just my opinion, > based on > comments over the years from pilots who've flown 1835's. I'm not > sure I > know of anybody actually flying a 1600cc engine, if that gives you a > clue... > > Mark Langford, Harvest, AL > see homebuilt airplane at http://www.N56ML.com > email to N56ML "at" hiwaay.net > > > _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at > http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > Virgil N. Salisbury - AMSOIL www.lubedealer.com/salisbury Miami ,Fl _______________________________________ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html Tim Hoversten Portage, WI timhoversten@yahoo.com --------------------------------- Yahoo! Shopping Find Great Deals on Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 10:18:00 +0100 From: Serge VIDAL Subject: R?f. : RE: KR> Nuts and bolts To: KRnet Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Wow! I never expected such a debate on what I thought was a simple question! OK, let me explain what I am up to. I am trying to order replacement screws for my Zenith/Stromberg carburetor (so, Larry, you may stop worrying about me: it IS non-structural indeed). Now, the bottom part of the carb is secured with long, thin machine screws, which are of a diameter of roughly 3.2mm, if I remember well. Obviously, to order that, I needed to identify the screw size correctly (remember, I live in Europe, so non-Metric things must be ordered from the US by mail order, and the order must be right first time, otherwise...I'm screwed!). With metric screws, this would be a non-issue: take a caliper, measure the diameter in millimeters, period. But US machine screws seem to have obscure names, like MS35206-203, and even more obscure size names, like 2-56 or 8-32. So, I was definitely lost. And yes, before I asked, I did check in Tony Bingelis's books, and also the AC-4313 1A, even in the Jeppesen sheet metal course, and the Internet too. Lots of data on AN stuff, but I could not find any explanation on the machine screws measurement system. Now, I then noticed that the smallest AN bolt size is also defined the same way (10-32). Hence my question: what do the two figures mean, so that I can understand what is what in the Imperial system, and make sure I order the right stuff. I am now pretty sure the correct size will be 8-32. Thanks for all the help, guys. Now, for fellow non-US builders who are also lost in translation, I compiled a Microsoft Excel table of the AN hardware sizes which gives Metric measurements. Anybody interested, just shoot. Serge Vidal KR2 "Kilimanjaro Cloud" Paris, France ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 8:27:55 -0500 From: Steven Phillabaum Subject: KR> Control mevement at aileron cable To: Message-ID: <4ik1e6$24sfa7@mxip32a.cluster1.charter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I asked this one way but did not get an answer. Mark did reply. Re phrased. Can someone measure the total travel the aileron cable makes at the stick connection? Mine is looking like 1.75" maybe 2.0". Is this going to be enough? Thank you. Steven Phillabaum KR2S; 5048; corvair; Auburn, Alabama ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 09:47:47 -0600 From: "Mark Jones" Subject: RE: KR> Control mevement at aileron cable To: "KR Net \(E-mail\)" Message-ID: <26D1C67793459F43BF8DA235F92B1F35C103EA@tulsaexchange.tulsaokmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Steven, The aileron cable connection on the stick per plans (guys correct me if I am wrong) is located 3" from the pivot point. The amount of travel your aileron will make depends on where you attach the push rod to the aileron bell horn. The closer you attach it to the aileron the farther your travel will be. The farther out you attach it the shorter the aileron travel will be. This can also be adjusted by placement of the push rod closer to the pivot point of the aileron bell crank.. When you ask about travel of the cable are you asking full travel right to left or only in one direction. The way mine is set, I would have to throw my control stick completely horizontal to get a full travel of 6" right to left. I probably never exceed a third of that in actual flight and that would be in extreme situations. While in flight, you will find a mere aileron deflection of 1/4" will get you where you want to go rather quickly. I will measure what I have the next time I am at the hanger. Hope this helps some for now. Mark Jones (N886MJ) Wales, WI Visit my web site: http://www.flykr2s.com Email: mailto:flykr2s@wi.rr.com -----Original Message----- From: krnet-bounces+flykr2s=wi.rr.com@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-bounces+flykr2s=wi.rr.com@mylist.net]On Behalf Of Steven Phillabaum Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 7:28 AM To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: KR> Control mevement at aileron cable I asked this one way but did not get an answer. Mark did reply. Re phrased. Can someone measure the total travel the aileron cable makes at the stick connection? Mine is looking like 1.75" maybe 2.0". Is this going to be enough? Thank you. Steven Phillabaum KR2S; 5048; corvair; Auburn, Alabama _______________________________________ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 11:41:29 -0500 From: Ron Butterfield Subject: Re: KR> Nuts and bolts To: KRnet Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20051207112446.0356a458@pop.mebtel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed At 04:18 AM 12/7/05, Serge wrote: >Obviously, to order that, I needed to identify the screw size correctly >(remember, I live in Europe, so non-Metric things must be ordered from >the US by mail order, and the order must be right first time, >otherwise...I'm screwed!). One resource for technical details for US screws (mostly not _Aircraft_ screws) is http://www.mcmaster.com/ If you do a search for "screws", the first item to come up will be the selection list, with an astonishing array of types. Once you get down to a specific type, the catalog pages will usually have technical details for them. For an example of mind-numbing detail, here is what comes up for a drilled fillister head machine screw, 8/32: Part Number: 90350A265 $12.38 per Pack of 10 FED Specification Fed. Spec. FF-S-92 MIL Specification MIL 35275 Head Style Drilled Fillister Material Type Stainless Steel Finish Plain Stainless Steel Type 18-8 Stainless Steel MIL 35275 Dash # 243 Drive Style Slotted System of Measurement Inch Thread Size #8-32 Length 3/8" Decimal Size .164" Head Diameter .270" Head Height .156" Hole Size .048" Thread Point Style Machine Specifications Met Federal Specifications (FED) and Military Specifications (MIL) Rockwell Hardness B85-B95 Minimum Tensile Strength 80,000 psi along with a technical drawing. Regards, RonB ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 11:55:36 -0500 From: "Colin Rainey" Subject: KR> cable movement To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <410-220051237165536837@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Steve Sorry about the slow response to answer but I have been working on the other end at the engine. The cable in my set up travels 1.75" from end to end and actuates the ailerons fully. My dual stick arrangement is the dual stick assembly bought from Brian Kraut that is a Rand Robinson from another KR2. The only mods to my system is direct pushtube to the lower attachment on the stick center (where the lower cable would go), and the shortening of the cables to be able to attach to the dual sticks. I did run into a lack of deflection problem early on with either single or dual stick arrangement, and Larry Flesner pointed out that he had to re-drill his bellcrank closer to the center pivot bolt on the aileron bellcrank. I followed his lead on that one, and drilled mine 1/2" closer also and then reshaped the part for clearance. I also followed a recommendation from Dan Heath about making sure the push rod to the aileron horn was level, so I added a spacer to the bellcrank hook up point to bring the push rod level in its movement while actuating the aileron. These two changes combined corrected my deflection issues, and I have full deflection now, and it flies great. I have 35 hours of flight time on the changes, so I know they work good. For the same amount of stick deflection, more movement at the control surface is achieved by reducing the radius of motion, or simply making the attach point closer to the hinge. Good luck.... Colin Rainey brokerpilot96ta@earthlink.net EarthLink Revolves Around You. ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 12:27:28 -0500 From: "Colin Rainey" Subject: KR> perspective To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <410-220051237172728868@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Netters I have said this before, but it bares repeating for those who may have missed this. When judging the control sensitivity of your KR, keep in mind that in my experience, in flight the KR is right in line with many other aircraft depending on your CG loading. This is also the case in any aircraft as well. They will all get more sensitive the further back the CG goes, and all planes get "touchy" above 110 knots, or 125 mph (approximately). I have flown as PIC in more than 15 different models of aircraft both twin engine and single, several that are high performance aircraft, and the KR2 and KR2S fit nicely into the high performance category of performance. Experience in these faster and more powerful aircraft compares well to the speeds and flying characteristics of the KR. The biggest change, which alot of builders are changing on their planes to remedy, is the fact that alot of certified aircraft are designed to "get heavy" on the elevator or stabilator at slow speeds, to prevent over controlling in landing. The higher performance aircraft do not have this as their landing speeds and the need for control demand full authority, so they fly like the KR in landing as well. My reasons for pointing these things out is to re-assure builders that their plane is flying "normally", and to give those who do not have an opportunity to fly a KR what they can do to help train the brain in order to make transition easier. Flying in a fast Mooney or Beechcraft aircraft will help to get the brain accustomed to the faster landing speeds and patterns that most KR's need to fly safely. Also having the adjustment to the cross country speeds, and how quickly those check points come up is a big help in navigation. Above all fly as much as you can, in as many different models as possible prior to starting to fly your own plane. It will make you safer and bring those flying skills back up to where they need to be in order to be as safe as you can be... P.S. The line starts now for those wanting a ride at The Gathering, and like the rides at Universal Theme Park, there is a height restriction of no more than 5'10". This is a short man's plane with no adjustable seats, LOL... Colin Rainey brokerpilot96ta@earthlink.net EarthLink Revolves Around You. ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 13:54:43 -0500 From: "Ron Freiberger" Subject: KR> Nuts and bolts To: "'KRnet'" Message-ID: <000001c5fb5f$affa5290$0202a8c0@Disorganized> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Serge is never gonna find a rationale for the IMPERIAL SYSTEM. Furlongs and Fortnights!!! Ron Freiberger mail to ronandmartha@earthlink.net ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 13:58:13 -0500 From: "Doug Rupert" Subject: RE: KR> perspective To: , "'KRnet'" Message-ID: <000c01c5fb60$3184dbf0$096cd1d8@office> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" P.S. The line starts now for those wanting a ride at The Gathering, and like the rides at Universal Theme Park, there is a height restriction of no more than 5'10". This is a short man's plane with no adjustable seats, LOL... Colin Rainey Colin if I manage to spring free from the ice this winter I just might look you up. Have to get my butt down to Jack Cooper’s to pick up the parts I bought before he hands me a whopper of a storage bill. Doug Rupert -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.11/191 - Release Date: 12/2/2005 ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 21:23:25 +0100 From: Serge VIDAL Subject: R?f. : KR> Nuts and bolts To: KRnet Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hey! This is so unfair! This time, I took great care not to argue about the wisdom of the Imperial system! ;-) Serge Vidal "Ron Freiberger" Envoyé par : krnet-bounces@mylist.net 2005-12-07 19:54 Veuillez répondre à KRnet Remis le : 2005-12-07 19:54 Pour : "'KRnet'" cc : (ccc : Serge VIDAL/DNSA/SAGEM) Objet : KR> Nuts and bolts Serge is never gonna find a rationale for the IMPERIAL SYSTEM. Furlongs and Fortnights!!! Ron Freiberger mail to ronandmartha@earthlink.net _______________________________________ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 19:46:55 EST From: BEARLKBOB@aol.com Subject: Re: KR> aileron hinges. To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <210.ef0ac6b.30c8dc7f@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" The facts are that the KR is light, fast, and agile. Changes to the design will not make it much faster, more agile, and most changes just add weight. I do however like to think through the ideas that get presented here. This helps keep the brain from aging, and every once in a while something sweet (like the DR. Dean hinges) comes up. So charge on, and thanks for the ideas and input. Bob Polgreen ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 22:43:24 -0500 From: Steven Phillabaum Subject: KR> control movement ailelrons To: Message-ID: <4enimt$1o6e86o@mxip11a.cluster1.charter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Thanks Colin, Mark, and Mark; I think I will live with the 2" of travel for the control movement at the stick connection. Since I haven't built the control horns for the ailerons yet I see some corrections can be made. (How many I Build to get it right will depend.) Thanks KRnet. Steven Phillabaum KR2S; 5048; corvair; Auburn, Alabama ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ See KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html End of KRnet Digest, Vol 347, Issue 503 *************************************** ================================== ABC Amber Outlook Converter v4.20 Trial version ==================================