From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net To: John Bouyea Subject: KRnet Digest, Vol 347, Issue 528 Date: 12/27/2005 7:00:13 PM Send KRnet mailing list submissions to krnet@mylist.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mylist.net/listinfo/krnet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to krnet-request@mylist.net You can reach the person managing the list at krnet-owner@mylist.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of KRnet digest..." Today's Topics: 1. R?f. : KR> Serge's ignition (Serge VIDAL) 2. R?f. : Re: KR> Corvair ignition (Serge VIDAL) 3. Re: new (recycled) KR builder - NH (patrusso) 4. Re: WEB page (Eric Pitts) 5. Re: dual sticks (Mark Langford) 6. 2005 KR Planes (Mark Jones) 7. RE: R?f. : Re: KR> Corvair ignition (Brian Kraut) 8. Re: 2005 KR Planes (Mark Langford) 9. Re: R?f. : KR> Serge's ignition (AVLEC) 10. RE: Réf. : Re: KR> Corvair ignition (Joachim Saupe) 11. Re: 2005 KR Planes (Larry&Sallie Flesner) 12. Re: 2005 KR Planes (Charles Buddy & Cheryl Midkiff) 13. Re: 2005 KR Planes (Mark Jones) 14. KR2 in X-Plane (Dan Heath) 15. Re: 2005 KR Planes (Joachim Saupe) 16. Re: 2005 KR Planes (Mark Jones) 17. Corvair Ignition (Colin Rainey) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 10:02:50 +0100 From: Serge VIDAL Subject: R?f. : KR> Serge's ignition To: KRnet Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi, Dene. Yes, that is a very interesting thought indeed, and very seducing too. Although I won't go that route at this stage, because my electrical system has not been built so as to be modified easily. There are two of these fancy aircraft connectors with crimped pins to go through... (leftovers from the Rooivalk attack helicopter development program!) I can see no reason why this electronic ignition system won't work with a six cylinders. I would strongly recommend that you install two sets of pick-ups (after all, we don't know how well these components age), but I agree one spark plug per cylinder and one set of coils should do the trick. By the way, have you got a mail address for Rob Van der Merwe? Happy new year, Serge Vidal KR2 "Kilimanjaro Cloud" Paris, France "AVLEC" Envoyé par : krnet-bounces+serge.vidal=sagem.com@mylist.net 24/12/2005 12:34 Veuillez répondre à KRnet Remis le : 24/12/2005 12:25 Pour : "KRnet" cc : (ccc : Serge VIDAL/DNSA/SAGEM) Objet : KR> Serge's ignition Hi Serge I was just thinking about your primary ignition system (the one with the centrifugal advance). You actually have two seperate systems there which are joined by one common mode of failure, the switch. If you changed the switch to a double pole switch with two seperate positive supplies and a seperate positive supply from the switch to each "system" you will in effect have a seperate ignition system for each pair of cylinders. I suppose the same goes for your secondary ignition. I don't know how well the plane will fly on two cylinders but I suppose that is better than none at all. If anything it will improve your glide slope! I plan on using an identical system on my corvair 3100 , only mine will have an extra pickup, an extra amplifier and an extra coil. The pickups will just have to be arranged 120 deg apart in stead of 180 and it should work just fine. I don't think I will even install a secondary ignition as you have because I think the KR will be able to stay in the air and maintain altitude just fine on four cylinders should I lose one ignition. Now to find a triple pole toggle switch if there is such a thing. To all, have a merry christmas and a prosperous new year. PS. Steve from Zambia is now living here in Port Elizabeth and has been in contact with me for the past three weeks. I had a brew with him yesterday and he says Hi to all on the list. As soon as he has his computer set up and an internet connection he will join us on the list. Regards Dene Collett KR2SRT builder South africa Whisper assembler See: www.whisperaircraft.com mailto: avlec@telkomsa.net _______________________________________ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 12:55:32 +0100 From: Serge VIDAL Subject: R?f. : Re: KR> Corvair ignition To: KRnet Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Colin, Indeed, my KR2 has got a very special electronic ignition, which I call "solid state". And believe me, this has absolutely nothing to do with standard electronic ignition as you know it. Let me try and explain. It is a very simple set of components that "reads" the ignition timing with a magnetic sensor, and triggers the ignition coils with a relay. Period. So, it has got absolutely no software in it, in any form whatsoever. It is only a handful of plain and simple electronic components that react to a magnetic impulse. How does it work? There is a tiny steel mass clamped to the crankshaft. Around the crankshaft, you have small magnetic sensors (roughly half the size of a matchbox) that react when that steel mass passes by (for one of my two ignition systems, the steel mass is a 4mm grubscrew that protrudes by about 3mm... so we are talking very small mass, here!). As for the exact operation principle, I believe the magnetic pick-ups create a very small magnetic field, and react when that field is disturbed, although I am not too sure about that. Then, the magnetic pick-up triggers a relay, which in turn triggers an ignition coil, which in turn fires two spark plugs (the coil has got two output wires). Now, the idea is that each of these magnetic pick-ups takes care of two cylinders. I mean, it triggers two cylinders at the same time each time the magnetic mass passes by, and therefore, once per revolution f the crankshaft. These would be the two cylinders that are at opposite times of the 4-stroke cycle, and therefore, offset by one full revolution of the crankshaft. So, for a given cylinder, one turn out of two, the system will fire the cylinder at the correct timing. The next turn, the cylinder will be fired at the wrong timing, but that will be during the exhaust phase, so this will have no effect whatsoever. If your engine is a two cylinders, a single pick-up will do. If your engine is a four cylinder, then you will need two pick-ups, offset by 180°. A six cylinders will take three pick-ups, offset by 120°. And so on... It doesn't get more reliable and more simple than that. So, what's the beauty of the system? Well, I see many. - It runs on the crankshaft, not the camshaft, so you don't have to worry about gears, or build mechanical interfaces - It runs from the outside of the engine, so no ports - It has no mechanical contact whatsoever, so no friction, no breakage, no slippage, no nothing; - It is set once and for all. Bolted in place, zero maintenance except for checking the condition of the electrical contacts. - It has an extremely low parts count, and very few failure modes. - It costs peanuts, because it comes straight out motorcycle junkyards And here comes the one-and-only drawback: - It needs electricity to run, so you have to make sure you dont' lose both your alternator and your battery. The only sophistication in the system is the advance-retard mechanism. This system will give you less advance at engine start, and a constant advance thereafter. How does it work? Very simple again. The steel mass can move for a certain angle ( it has a mechanical angular travel), and is held in the "start" position (low advance) by a spring. As soon as the engine turns, the strength of the spring is overcome by the centrifugal force of the rotating crankshaft, and the steel mass moves towards its normal position (ful advance) and stays there for as long as the engine runs. Let me add that I did not design that system. It came with the engine when I bought the plane. But I was so happy with it that when I upgraded the engine (you see, I became power hungry), I replicated it, and introduced more redundancy (two spark plugs per cylinder). As far as I am concerned, the track record is 400 fligh hours on the previous engine without a glitch, and about 3 flight hours with the new engine, still without a glitch. So, I'm a believer. Serge Vidal KR2 "Kilimanjaro Cloud" Paris, France "AVLEC" Envoyé par : krnet-bounces@mylist.net 26/12/2005 16:48 Veuillez répondre à KRnet Remis le : 26/12/2005 20:07 Pour : , "KRnet" cc : (ccc : Serge VIDAL/DNSA/SAGEM) Objet : Re: KR> Corvair ignition Colin, if you had the oppertunity to see the system in Serg's plane, you would see how simple it really is. You literally just remove it from the donor motorcycle and install it on the motor of your choice( any motor, any number of cylinders. By just seperating the power supply to the seperate ignitions, you end up with a totally seperate ignition system for every two cylinders (for odd number of cylinders just leave off one of the plug leads). In the case of a VW I doubt that you would be able to stay in the air with two cylinders but with the corvair 3100 that I should be getting soon, if one of the three independant ignitions should fail I would be left with the equivalent of an out of tune type IV VW to take me home! That system in Serg's plane has done probably in the region of 600 hrs + without as much as a hickup. It also needs zero maintenance except to check the electrical connections now and then.Thats reliability in my book! It even has centrifugal advance!! It doesn't get much simpler than that. Regards Dene Collett KR2SRT builder South africa Whisper assembler See: www.whisperaircraft.com mailto: avlec@telkomsa.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Colin Rainey" To: Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2005 02:42 Subject: KR> Corvair ignition > Dene > If you are going to go to that much trouble with the ignition system, when there is very little faults with the original system, and a Petronics electronic update from either Summit Racing or Clark's Corvairs will eliminate any other normal failure. Modern electronic ignition systems do not just "quit" as in days gone past, if it is a quality system. > > You can use an external GM crank sensor, or cam sensor, and install a > 3 tiered trigger system, then have 3 GM late model capacitive coils which is what they use on the Aerovee VW engine, and trigger each one individually, hooked up to the 2 companion cylinders so that one is firing on the exhaust stroke while the other is firing on compression stroke. The only problem with that type of simple system is it is fixed timing, unless you figure out how to incorporate an ignition module. Since caps, rotors, and normal use distributor shafts don't fail in use suddenly, but rather deteriorate slowly over time, a pilot will notice they are wearing out before failure. Therefore, that is ALOT of engineering to go through for very little pay off, and will definitely hurt peak performance. > > Most sudden failures of ignition systems today are actually systems > that have been ignored, and driven with for some time, until the vehicle will not operate any more. From my observation here, KR pilots are ALOT more conscientious and will abort takeoffs and determine the problem, instead of flying anyway, and "worry about it later" attitude. > > If it makes a difference I will be flying behind a single ignition system, of electronic type, and vacuum advance distributor, and expect with regular maintenance and attention to have the same reliability as I have in my driveway... > > Merry Christmas from our family to yours, including our "new baby boy" Zeus, a 2 pound miniature Doberman/rat terrier mix. > > Colin Rainey > brokerpilot96ta@earthlink.net _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > _______________________________________ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 06:56:29 -0500 From: "patrusso" Subject: Re: KR> new (recycled) KR builder - NH To: "michaela" , "KRnet" Message-ID: <000a01c60adc$92c53b40$64a772d8@patrusso> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original But of course! I am retired and am almost always in my shop but call beforehand at 1-802-222-9240 or Pat Russo at 1062 South Road, Bradford, Vermont. ----- Original Message ----- From: "michaela" To: "KRnet" Sent: Monday, December 26, 2005 9:09 PM Subject: Re: KR> new (recycled) KR builder - NH > Pat, Paul: > I'll be visiting my folks in N.H. in mid-late January (I grew up in > Bellows Falls, VT). Would love to see an actual KR2S in progress, live and > in person. Any chance I could stop by for a peek? Thanks. - Tony > > > >> -------Original Message------- >> From: patrusso >> Subject: Re: KR> new (recycled) KR builder >> Sent: 26 Dec '05 12:32 >> >> Paul,Where in NH? I am just across the Conn. river, a bit north of >> dartmouth. Pat ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 07:10:24 -0500 From: "Eric Pitts" Subject: Re: KR> WEB page To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <000701c60ade$851681a0$f5524a0c@computer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I just need to weld it up and then fit in the plane and it should be done. Eric Pitts Terre Haute Indiana KR2S http://home.att.net/~e.j.pitts/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Heath" To: Sent: Monday, December 26, 2005 5:50 PM Subject: Re: KR> WEB page > Is it complete or are you still working on it, because I only saw part > of the stick construction. I like the jig, I should have done it like > that. > > See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics > > See you in Mt. Vernon - 2006 - KR Gathering > > There is a time for building and a time for FLYING and the time for building > is OVER. > > Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC > > -------Original Message------- > > Just added a new page covering the Dual control sticks. Let me know if > it does not work. > > > > > _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 06:49:37 -0600 From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> dual sticks To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <007101c60ae3$ff9fe240$d004a58c@net.tbe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Eric Pitts wrote: >I just need to weld it up and then fit in the plane and it should be >done. One thing I should point out that Steve Phillabaum brought up the other day...those 1x3 steel boxes that make up the brackets for the sticks could stand to be "shorter". I made them the height that they are to act as control stops for my ailerons, but the stock system may require more travel than the current box height allows. That's easily fixed by drilling the aileron bellcrank at the proper center-to-center distance, so I guess I'm saying to keep this in mind if you are using aileron bellcranks that's already built, because it might be a problem. Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford email to N56ML "at" hiwaay.net ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 09:52:07 -0600 From: "Mark Jones" Subject: KR> 2005 KR Planes To: "KR Net \(E-mail\)" Message-ID: <26D1C67793459F43BF8DA235F92B1F35C10464@tulsaexchange.tulsaokmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" There was a web link showing the 2005 KR planes in attendance. These were some nice photos and I can not remember who's link it was. It does not seem to be working any longer. Here is the link I have: http://krfly.no-ip.org/gathering05.html I would like to get this link working again or if anyone saved the photos, please send them to me so I can put them back on my web site. Mark Langford, are you going to do a 2005 photo addition to the KR Net? Too busy flying to get er done? I understand plus I envy you!!!! Mark Jones (N886MJ) Wales, WI Visit my "NEW" KR CorvAIRCRAFT web site: http://www.flykr2s.com Email: mailto:flykr2s@wi.rr.com ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 11:22:46 -0500 From: "Brian Kraut" Subject: RE: R?f. : Re: KR> Corvair ignition To: "KRnet" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" That is the way that the Great Plains electronic ignition works. They package it in something that fits inside the distributor hole, but I know one person that just put the magnets by the prop hub and mounted the sensors near it. You could do the same with the ring gear. I believe that you can buy all the components from Great Plains without the distributor housing. The sensor is all a small module that does not need a separate relay. Brian Kraut Engineering Alternatives, Inc. www.engalt.com -----Original Message----- From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-bounces@mylist.net]On Behalf Of Serge VIDAL Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 6:56 AM To: KRnet Subject: Réf. : Re: KR> Corvair ignition Colin, Indeed, my KR2 has got a very special electronic ignition, which I call "solid state". And believe me, this has absolutely nothing to do with standard electronic ignition as you know it. Let me try and explain. It is a very simple set of components that "reads" the ignition timing with a magnetic sensor, and triggers the ignition coils with a relay. Period. So, it has got absolutely no software in it, in any form whatsoever. It is only a handful of plain and simple electronic components that react to a magnetic impulse. How does it work? There is a tiny steel mass clamped to the crankshaft. Around the crankshaft, you have small magnetic sensors (roughly half the size of a matchbox) that react when that steel mass passes by (for one of my two ignition systems, the steel mass is a 4mm grubscrew that protrudes by about 3mm... so we are talking very small mass, here!). As for the exact operation principle, I believe the magnetic pick-ups create a very small magnetic field, and react when that field is disturbed, although I am not too sure about that. Then, the magnetic pick-up triggers a relay, which in turn triggers an ignition coil, which in turn fires two spark plugs (the coil has got two output wires). Now, the idea is that each of these magnetic pick-ups takes care of two cylinders. I mean, it triggers two cylinders at the same time each time the magnetic mass passes by, and therefore, once per revolution f the crankshaft. These would be the two cylinders that are at opposite times of the 4-stroke cycle, and therefore, offset by one full revolution of the crankshaft. So, for a given cylinder, one turn out of two, the system will fire the cylinder at the correct timing. The next turn, the cylinder will be fired at the wrong timing, but that will be during the exhaust phase, so this will have no effect whatsoever. If your engine is a two cylinders, a single pick-up will do. If your engine is a four cylinder, then you will need two pick-ups, offset by 180°. A six cylinders will take three pick-ups, offset by 120°. And so on... It doesn't get more reliable and more simple than that. So, what's the beauty of the system? Well, I see many. - It runs on the crankshaft, not the camshaft, so you don't have to worry about gears, or build mechanical interfaces - It runs from the outside of the engine, so no ports - It has no mechanical contact whatsoever, so no friction, no breakage, no slippage, no nothing; - It is set once and for all. Bolted in place, zero maintenance except for checking the condition of the electrical contacts. - It has an extremely low parts count, and very few failure modes. - It costs peanuts, because it comes straight out motorcycle junkyards And here comes the one-and-only drawback: - It needs electricity to run, so you have to make sure you dont' lose both your alternator and your battery. The only sophistication in the system is the advance-retard mechanism. This system will give you less advance at engine start, and a constant advance thereafter. How does it work? Very simple again. The steel mass can move for a certain angle ( it has a mechanical angular travel), and is held in the "start" position (low advance) by a spring. As soon as the engine turns, the strength of the spring is overcome by the centrifugal force of the rotating crankshaft, and the steel mass moves towards its normal position (ful advance) and stays there for as long as the engine runs. Let me add that I did not design that system. It came with the engine when I bought the plane. But I was so happy with it that when I upgraded the engine (you see, I became power hungry), I replicated it, and introduced more redundancy (two spark plugs per cylinder). As far as I am concerned, the track record is 400 fligh hours on the previous engine without a glitch, and about 3 flight hours with the new engine, still without a glitch. So, I'm a believer. Serge Vidal KR2 "Kilimanjaro Cloud" Paris, France "AVLEC" Envoyé par : krnet-bounces@mylist.net 26/12/2005 16:48 Veuillez répondre à KRnet Remis le : 26/12/2005 20:07 Pour : , "KRnet" cc : (ccc : Serge VIDAL/DNSA/SAGEM) Objet : Re: KR> Corvair ignition Colin, if you had the oppertunity to see the system in Serg's plane, you would see how simple it really is. You literally just remove it from the donor motorcycle and install it on the motor of your choice( any motor, any number of cylinders. By just seperating the power supply to the seperate ignitions, you end up with a totally seperate ignition system for every two cylinders (for odd number of cylinders just leave off one of the plug leads). In the case of a VW I doubt that you would be able to stay in the air with two cylinders but with the corvair 3100 that I should be getting soon, if one of the three independant ignitions should fail I would be left with the equivalent of an out of tune type IV VW to take me home! That system in Serg's plane has done probably in the region of 600 hrs + without as much as a hickup. It also needs zero maintenance except to check the electrical connections now and then.Thats reliability in my book! It even has centrifugal advance!! It doesn't get much simpler than that. Regards Dene Collett KR2SRT builder South africa Whisper assembler See: www.whisperaircraft.com mailto: avlec@telkomsa.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Colin Rainey" To: Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2005 02:42 Subject: KR> Corvair ignition > Dene > If you are going to go to that much trouble with the ignition system, when there is very little faults with the original system, and a Petronics electronic update from either Summit Racing or Clark's Corvairs will eliminate any other normal failure. Modern electronic ignition systems do not just "quit" as in days gone past, if it is a quality system. > > You can use an external GM crank sensor, or cam sensor, and install a > 3 tiered trigger system, then have 3 GM late model capacitive coils which is what they use on the Aerovee VW engine, and trigger each one individually, hooked up to the 2 companion cylinders so that one is firing on the exhaust stroke while the other is firing on compression stroke. The only problem with that type of simple system is it is fixed timing, unless you figure out how to incorporate an ignition module. Since caps, rotors, and normal use distributor shafts don't fail in use suddenly, but rather deteriorate slowly over time, a pilot will notice they are wearing out before failure. Therefore, that is ALOT of engineering to go through for very little pay off, and will definitely hurt peak performance. > > Most sudden failures of ignition systems today are actually systems > that have been ignored, and driven with for some time, until the vehicle will not operate any more. From my observation here, KR pilots are ALOT more conscientious and will abort takeoffs and determine the problem, instead of flying anyway, and "worry about it later" attitude. > > If it makes a difference I will be flying behind a single ignition system, of electronic type, and vacuum advance distributor, and expect with regular maintenance and attention to have the same reliability as I have in my driveway... > > Merry Christmas from our family to yours, including our "new baby boy" Zeus, a 2 pound miniature Doberman/rat terrier mix. > > Colin Rainey > brokerpilot96ta@earthlink.net _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > _______________________________________ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html _______________________________________ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 10:40:23 -0600 From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> 2005 KR Planes To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <009401c60b04$3c3440f0$d004a58c@net.tbe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Mark Jones wrote: > Mark Langford, are you going to do a 2005 photo addition to the KR > Net? > Too busy flying to get er done? One of these days. Right now I have a deadline at work that won't wait, and the sky is looking pretty blue at the moment! Really though, I didn't take that many pictures this year because I was there and gone in a hurry (funeral) and we were busy with the vibration testing and that sort of thing. Next year I'll do better, if I'm not doing "missed approaches" the whole time... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford email to N56ML "at" hiwaay.net ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 22:10:47 +0200 From: "AVLEC" Subject: Re: R?f. : KR> Serge's ignition To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <007901c60b21$cb88bc00$b2a6fea9@dene> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Serge I spoke to Rob this morning and he says that he had it wired like that all the time (through a double pole switch). The only thing I would have changed in his case would have been to install a second battery so that the 12V supply could be changed out as well. When you talk about a relay, it is really a solid state device and not an electro mechanical relay.That ignition must be very light on power, he says that he ran the motor without an alternator for the first 100hrs or so without ever recharging the battery! Just how accurate his memory is I don't know. His address is: 158 Villiers Road Walmer Port Elizabeth 6056. Regards Dene Collett KR2SRT builder South africa Whisper assembler See: www.whisperaircraft.com mailto: avlec@telkomsa.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Serge VIDAL" To: "KRnet" Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 11:02 Subject: Réf. : KR> Serge's ignition Hi, Dene. Yes, that is a very interesting thought indeed, and very seducing too. Although I won't go that route at this stage, because my electrical system has not been built so as to be modified easily. There are two of these fancy aircraft connectors with crimped pins to go through... (leftovers from the Rooivalk attack helicopter development program!) I can see no reason why this electronic ignition system won't work with a six cylinders. I would strongly recommend that you install two sets of pick-ups (after all, we don't know how well these components age), but I agree one spark plug per cylinder and one set of coils should do the trick. By the way, have you got a mail address for Rob Van der Merwe? Happy new year, Serge Vidal KR2 "Kilimanjaro Cloud" Paris, France "AVLEC" Envoyé par : krnet-bounces+serge.vidal=sagem.com@mylist.net 24/12/2005 12:34 Veuillez répondre à KRnet Remis le : 24/12/2005 12:25 Pour : "KRnet" cc : (ccc : Serge VIDAL/DNSA/SAGEM) Objet : KR> Serge's ignition Hi Serge I was just thinking about your primary ignition system (the one with the centrifugal advance). You actually have two seperate systems there which are joined by one common mode of failure, the switch. If you changed the switch to a double pole switch with two seperate positive supplies and a seperate positive supply from the switch to each "system" you will in effect have a seperate ignition system for each pair of cylinders. I suppose the same goes for your secondary ignition. I don't know how well the plane will fly on two cylinders but I suppose that is better than none at all. If anything it will improve your glide slope! I plan on using an identical system on my corvair 3100 , only mine will have an extra pickup, an extra amplifier and an extra coil. The pickups will just have to be arranged 120 deg apart in stead of 180 and it should work just fine. I don't think I will even install a secondary ignition as you have because I think the KR will be able to stay in the air and maintain altitude just fine on four cylinders should I lose one ignition. Now to find a triple pole toggle switch if there is such a thing. To all, have a merry christmas and a prosperous new year. PS. Steve from Zambia is now living here in Port Elizabeth and has been in contact with me for the past three weeks. I had a brew with him yesterday and he says Hi to all on the list. As soon as he has his computer set up and an internet connection he will join us on the list. Regards Dene Collett KR2SRT builder South africa Whisper assembler See: www.whisperaircraft.com mailto: avlec@telkomsa.net _______________________________________ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html _______________________________________ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 14:17:24 -0600 From: "Joachim Saupe" Subject: RE: Réf. : Re: KR> Corvair ignition To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <410-2200512227201724500@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Serge, <> That's not an electro/mechanical relay, is it? At 3000 rpm it would have to cycle at 50 Hz! I guess that's possible and the contacts would wear just like an old fashioned ignition system. Joachim ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 17:58:33 -0600 From: Larry&Sallie Flesner Subject: Re: KR> 2005 KR Planes To: KRnet Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.0.20051227175700.03946e98@verizon.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed I seem to recall that Jack Cooper had those photos. Maybe, I think, could be wrong, not sure,...................................... Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 16:13:52 -0800 From: "Charles Buddy & Cheryl Midkiff" Subject: Re: KR> 2005 KR Planes To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <006b01c60b43$96c93180$6401a8c0@BUDDY> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original How about these? Bud Midkiff http://home.pcisys.net/~elmiller/gathering05.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry&Sallie Flesner" To: "KRnet" Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 3:58 PM Subject: Re: KR> 2005 KR Planes > > > I seem to recall that Jack Cooper had those photos. Maybe, I think, > could be wrong, not sure,...................................... > > Larry Flesner > > > _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 18:15:24 -0600 From: "Mark Jones" Subject: Re: KR> 2005 KR Planes To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <000701c60b43$ccdba960$6401a8c0@wi.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I got them, Glover had the correct link. I have linked them correctly now on my web page. Here is the link: http://home.pcisys.net/~elmiller/gathering05.html Mark Jones (N886MJ) Wales, WI USA E-mail me at flykr2s@wi.rr.com Visit my NEW KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at www.flykr2s.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry&Sallie Flesner" To: "KRnet" Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 5:58 PM Subject: Re: KR> 2005 KR Planes > > > I seem to recall that Jack Cooper had those photos. Maybe, I think, > could be wrong, not sure,...................................... > > Larry Flesner > > > _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 19:27:36 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "Dan Heath" Subject: KR> KR2 in X-Plane To: Message-ID: <43B1DBF8.000003.01856@DANHOMECOMPUTER> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" All you KR2 X-Plane flyers, I have replaced the M Freeman KR2. The telltale has been removed and the tail feather control surfaces have been increased. It is at the click below, click on the last item in the menu. See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics See you in Mt. Vernon - 2006 - KR Gathering There is a time for building and a time for FLYING and the time for building is OVER. Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 19:21:44 -0600 From: "Joachim Saupe" Subject: Re: KR> 2005 KR Planes To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <410-220051232812144687@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Mark, the pictures I took are at the following: http://photos.yahoo.com/jsaupe Feel free to use those also. Joachim > [Original Message] > From: Mark Jones > To: KRnet > Date: 12/27/2005 6:11:50 PM > Subject: Re: KR> 2005 KR Planes > > I got them, Glover had the correct link. I have linked them correctly > now on > my web page. Here is the link: > http://home.pcisys.net/~elmiller/gathering05.html > > Mark Jones (N886MJ) > Wales, WI USA > E-mail me at flykr2s@wi.rr.com > Visit my NEW > KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at www.flykr2s.com > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Larry&Sallie Flesner" > To: "KRnet" > Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 5:58 PM > Subject: Re: KR> 2005 KR Planes > > > > > > > > I seem to recall that Jack Cooper had those photos. Maybe, I think, could > > be wrong, not sure,...................................... > > > > Larry Flesner > > > > > > _______________________________________ > > Search the KRnet Archives at > > http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > > > > > _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 19:38:45 -0600 From: "Mark Jones" Subject: Re: KR> 2005 KR Planes To: , "KRnet" Message-ID: <009d01c60b4f$71e51bc0$6401a8c0@wi.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" OK Thanks Mark Jones (N886MJ) Wales, WI USA E-mail me at flykr2s@wi.rr.com Visit my NEW KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at www.flykr2s.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joachim Saupe" To: "KRnet" Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 7:21 PM Subject: Re: KR> 2005 KR Planes > Mark, > the pictures I took are at the following: > http://photos.yahoo.com/jsaupe Feel free to use those also. > Joachim > > > > [Original Message] > > From: Mark Jones > > To: KRnet > > Date: 12/27/2005 6:11:50 PM > > Subject: Re: KR> 2005 KR Planes > > > > I got them, Glover had the correct link. I have linked them > > correctly now > on > > my web page. Here is the link: > > http://home.pcisys.net/~elmiller/gathering05.html > > > > Mark Jones (N886MJ) > > Wales, WI USA > > E-mail me at flykr2s@wi.rr.com > > Visit my NEW > > KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at www.flykr2s.com > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Larry&Sallie Flesner" > > To: "KRnet" > > Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 5:58 PM > > Subject: Re: KR> 2005 KR Planes > > > > > > > > > > > > > I seem to recall that Jack Cooper had those photos. Maybe, I > > > think, > could > > > be wrong, not sure,...................................... > > > > > > Larry Flesner > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________ > > > Search the KRnet Archives at > > > http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > > > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > > > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________ > > Search the KRnet Archives at > > http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > > > _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > ------------------------------ Message: 17 Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 22:01:05 -0500 From: "Colin Rainey" Subject: KR> Corvair Ignition To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <410-2200512328315863@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Serge and Dene I do not argue that your ignition system is simple and reliable. I work on those style ignition systems everyday. Virtually all new cars have a crank and cam trigger magnetic pickup system on them, one way or the other. I have not seen a distributor in a vehicle in a few years now. Only one problem that I see is, no spark retard system built in. ALL modern ignition systems operate with the computer managing the timing based on inputs from several sensors which give the computer engine load and demand information, ie: TPS, MAP, MAF, O2, CTS, ACT, Cam and Crank sensors. Your system works fine as long as the octane of the fuel is properly matched to the engine, AND engine temperatures are kept in a more restrictive range of operation. Remember, motorcycles have tapered walls most of the them that build and relieve compression as they travel up and down. Auto engines do not. When accelerating from cruise rpms, ALL auto engines retard the timing for detonation control, and advance as the rpm begins to level back out. In your system, you have fixed timing advance, which is great when initially accelerating, but part throttle acceleration can cause some real problems unless the advance is not "peak" for the engine. Then the engine runs good, but produces less horsepower than is optimal. If timing is set to this optimum setting, then caution with temps and operating conditions must be observed, or detonation is surely a result. This is why aviation engines must use a richer than required fuel mixture to assist in cooling and detonation protection. To extract peak power, one must be able to control timing in BOTH directions, and set it accordingly. Hence my comments about those not committed to something else will find it far easier to set the engine up and get the timing correct with the original distributor, just rebuilt, and updated with electronic pickup instead of points. Adjustments are much easier, and base timing can be set and adjusted as necessary to fine tune for a particular application. The ignition system process is known in the auto repair world as "Waste Fire Ignition" where the coil fires companion cylinders at the same time, one on compression stroke the other on exhaust. This also does a small part in helping clean the emissions, getting a second chance to ignite the unburned fuel prior to leaving the cylinder. It simplifies the timing curve that must be programmed into the PCM and eliminates parts count. Down side is if a plug wire goes bad, it will go to ground somewhere else and if it can't, it will burn out the coil. Secondly, Dene you were WRONG when you said a 5 cyl can just run one half of a coil for the odd cylinder! This is a big NO NO with this style system. The coil is powered at only one set of terminals, power and ground. Therefore, you MUST have two plugs wires going to two plugs, PROPERLY GROUNDED AS IN INSTALLED in order to not damage this system. Failure to do so will result in the coil being damaged! These coils also fire much hotter in KV then older coils, so plugs need to be of newer design, RFI for noise cancellation, and gaps adjusted appropriately for the compression ratio, ignition. I am starting with .035 gap, but I will also try a set gapped at .045 since I am using a hotter late model coil, and electronic pickup, and no ballast resistor in my power lead to the coil. My electronic ignition does not require a ballast resistor, so I can eliminate one more point of failure, common to the old ignition system. Fly what you are comfortable with and feel safe behind. But as I have said before, if you don't fully understand a system on your plane, learn about it, and get to know it, or replace it something you do know. Otherwise you are flying in the dark, or kinda with blindfolds. My remarks about sticking with the stock system, come from spending time modifying our KR to a better engine with a known quantity, and IT STILL IS TAKING TOO LONG. The more mods the longer the road... Colin Rainey brokerpilot96ta@earthlink.net ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ See KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html End of KRnet Digest, Vol 347, Issue 528 *************************************** ================================== ABC Amber Outlook Converter v4.20 Trial version ==================================